Did Jack Mean To Come Back?

[lynn cates]

Interest withdrawn? Capital!

Hello Robert.

"Lynn, I always find it difficult to work up an interest in other murders, but if I see any outlandishly bloody goings on, I'll post them."

Thanks. Same with me.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

hyperbole

Hello M'Lord. That's a good point. But if so, there was a bit of hyperbole about.

Cheers.
LC

[Robert]

Hi Your Grace

If it was a Ripperesque murder, then it's very strange that someone would start "at the deep end" with a murder like Kelly's, and then just stop.

If it was a crime of passion disguised as a Ripper murder, then that just feels wrong - you have an odd mixture of towering rage and devilish cunning.

[Lord-z]

I am not arguing that Kelly was a Ripper murder, I believe she was. I am merely trying to suggest an answer to Lynns question as to why a copycat would be way worse than the real deal.

[caz]

Way worse, with a whole variety of organs taken out - so why would a copycat not make off with a uterus or kidney, which had both featured so prominently in the gory details on everyone's lips and in all the papers?

It would be like doing an impression of Victor Meldrew without saying "I don't belieeeeeve it!"

And I don't believe it.

Love,

Caz
X

[Heinrich]

... Heinrich, are you bashing Joe again?

Only trying to help, Robert.

[DanaeChantel]

I dont think hes JTR for a minute but ive a feeling he could have done for kelly.crime of passion?temporary insanity? if she rejected him or something it could have forced him to completely lose the plot.

i imagine tenants regularly did a runner,maybe owing a week or sos rent,so unless he got in to all his premises with an axe(an expensive way of entering) i find not having a key to be complete lies.

ill wager he knew that you could enter kellys room by putting your hand through the window,but he wasnt about to give that information away.

but im stunned the police at the time didnt ask him why he didnt have a key.Till recently ive always lived in private rented accommodation and every landlord,good and bad has had a key to my living space.i now rent off the local authority and wouldnt be amazed if they had a key as well,though many things have changed in the last 120 odd yrs,im sure landlords had keys for their propertys.

Agreed to all of the above. Landlords had keys to the property's, it is as simple as that, also I am wondering why Mary did not go to McCarthy for another key. "Sir I've lost ma key ta ma dwellins, can I ave another? (Cockney accent) Why would she have just not gone to McCarthy and asked for another key and said she lost hers, rather than to go to all the trouble to break the window out, etc. Maybe he lost his key also. Or possibly the last tenant left with the key and the one he gave Mary was his last one and he hadn't taken the time to have another made. I am astonished the police did not ask him about a spare key or question him more thoroughly.

As far as McCarthy being JTR . . I don't think so. I don't think McCarthy would have torn Mary to pieces like that or any of the other women. I do believe though, he had a soft spot for her or even more than a soft spot. If he did know she was putting her hand through the broken window, why did he not have another key made for the dwelling and have the window fixed. Nothing about this case makes any sense!!!!

[Heinrich]

... Landlords had keys to the property's, it is as simple as that, also I am wondering why Mary did not go to McCarthy for another key. ... I am astonished the police did not ask him about a spare key or question him more thoroughly.
... If he did know she was putting her hand through the broken window, why did he not have another key made for the dwelling and have the window fixed. ...

McCarthy did not have a key for Mary's residence and was unable to help the police gain access to the dwelling which is why the door had to be broken open with an ax. He most likely did not know the key had been lost as he showed no knowledge of how to gain entrance by lifting the latch through the broken window.

[Ginger]

did [Bowyer] try to collect rent off the other tenants??We dont know,but we can presume(always a dangerous thing to do ) if he did that at least one of them would have mentioned it in their statements.

If (as seems reasonable) Bowyer and McCarthy were together in the shop when Bowyer was sent on his errand, then Mary's apartment would have been the first one he reached as he walked down the little passage to the courtyard. Whether or not he was originally supposed to collect from the others as well, I feel safe in guessing that he made no more calls for rent that morning.

-Ginger

[Wickerman]

Agreed to all of the above. Landlords had keys to the property's, it is as simple as that, ....

Originally maybe, when the lock was first installed, but how many years ago was that? You couldn't just buy replacement keys like you do today.
We can't say if McCarthy had a second key, his actions suggest he did not.

Regards, Jon S.

[Cogidubnus]

McCarthy and a fling

There is no way that McCarthy had a thing going with Mary Kelly without the neighborhood knowing and telling.
He likely had a soft spot for her, allowing her to get behind after the killer, Joseph Barnett, had lost his job, leaving Mary high and dry.

So she developed 29/- arrears with this sympathetic landlord between 30th October and 9th November....yeah sure...

It must've been one hell of a sob story to convince an East End slumlord

I've just started a thread on McCarthy under Suspects...I hadn't twigged this debate was going on over here...

Dave

[Sally]

Oh Look..

Another Conspiracy afoot. This time we have McCarthy doing in Kelly because she had something on him. Righto. So in this scenario, does Big Man McCarthy do the others as well?

Maybe they all owed him rent arrears? Or maybe he was involved in a protection racket and they couldn't pay up? Hang on, I think I've heard this somewhere before...

An awful lot of value judgements are being applied to McCarthy here: McCarthy was a slum landlord, and so he must conform to type and never allow a tenant to amass any rent arrears. And what? He was so 'ard that, finally tired of Kelly's failure to pay the bill and possibly jealous of her clients to boot (the internal logic of this argument is straining at the seams) he finally snapped and possibly with the help of Indian Harry, who doubltess knew all about knives from his military days, did her in and carved her up?

And Kelly, the minx, as a professional prostitute of alleged moderate attractiveness, could so manipulate any man in a 2 mile radius that she could easily get away without paying any rent - in fact, she probably could've stayed in No. 13 forever if McCarthy hadn't ripped her up.

In reality, the tenants of Miller's Court were in McCarthy's backyard. Of course he knew them to some degree - they would have used his shop, paid him rent, so some degree of personal relationship was inevitable. Maybe he just felt sorry for Kelly. Maybe he thought she could earn the money and was prepared to wait - how much would a few shillings a week have meant to him anyway? Mundane and unexciting, but surely more realistic. There is nothing to suggest that he had any intimate relationship with her - and even if he had, any suggestion that she died because of this is a bit extreme, isn't it?

McCarthy was a successful businessman who exploited the housing problem in the East End to his advantage - it doesn't make him capable of murder, any more than it does any property developer today.

Kelly was a prostitute. It doesn't give her special powers or mean that she had affairs with every man she met.

And besides, if McCarthy was in the habit of nipping over to No.13 in the night, you'd have thought his wife might have noticed?

[Cogidubnus]

What conspiracy?

An awful lot of value judgements are being applied to McCarthy here: McCarthy was a slum landlord, and so he must conform to type and never allow a tenant to amass any rent arrears.

In general yes...because if you let one get away with it, others will surely follow...

Maybe he just felt sorry for Kelly. Maybe he thought she could earn the money and was prepared to wait - how much would a few shillings a week have meant to him anyway?

Probably not a lot, but you don't build up a successful fiefdom like he did, by being a soft touch do you?

And who's suggesting a conspiracy theory? (Or is this just what you christen a piece of theorising you don't like?)

I don't necessarily say McCarthy's the Ripper, but I think both he and Barnett knew a good deal more than they let on...It has to be said, on the other hand, there's certainly a better case for suspecting McCarthy or Barnett than some of the other totally outrageous suspects...Anyone for a game of cricket?

All the best
Dave

[lynn cates]

conversation stopper

Hello Dave.

"And who's suggesting a conspiracy theory? (Or is this just what you christen a piece of theorising you don't like?)"

Actually, it's a way of ending a conversation. It's rather like the cry of "Anarchist!" in the late 19th/early 20th c.

Cheers.
LC

[Sally]

Lynn, Dave.

There is no 'cry' of conspiracy to end any conversation - that's just a ploy of conspiracy theorists in an attempt to silence dissenters. There we are, my very own conspiracy - a conspiracy of conspiracy theorists.

Joking aside.

Wild aspersions thrown in the general direction of McCarthy, Barnett and Kelly are nothing new, and don't really constitute theorising so much as sensationalism. It's like something from a Penny Dreadful.

Dave:

I don't necessarily say McCarthy's the Ripper, but I think both he and Barnett knew a good deal more than they let on...It has to be said, on the other hand, there's certainly a better case for suspecting McCarthy or Barnett than some of the other totally outrageous suspects...

Ah, so no conspiracy theory but McCarthy and Barnett knew more than they let on?

Shhh.....

Still, it'd be funny if they did, wouldn't it? If it was McCarthy and Barnett all this time, what, with their Irish Catholic connections and all. Makes you think...