Did Jack Mean To Come Back?

[ianincleveland]

This is pure speculation, but Barnett lost his Billingsgate job for some reason or other. McCarthy's shop sold food. What if Barnett was knocking off fish for McCarthy? Barnett's found out, loses his job, but McCarthy waits a while to see if Joe can establish himself in another job with the same mutual benefits.

Possible but Joe then left.To speculate more was the argument between Mary and Joe about Mccarthy?

And if there was,as i believe,an affair between Mary and McCarthy,firstly did any of the others in millers court know,and did they keep quiet for fear of being turned out on the street? i wonder also what their reaction was when they found kelly owed 6 weeks of rent money??? Id also love to know if Bowyer went for rent every Saturday,id have thought the chances of getting money were better the day after it being Lord Mayors show day and the chance for Mary to find some clients.so if Bowyer didnt go every Saturday for rent is it possible McCarthy sent him to avoid being in the position of finding Marys body.

To speculate yet further,if there was a thing between Mary and Mccarthy,that would increase his likelihood of being her killer.

i may be wildly wrong but Mccarthys behaviour with Mary,massive rent arrears,no key,possibly paying for her funeral,is all very suspicous.

[lynn cates]

overkill

Hello Ian. I agree about his behaviour being suspicious. But is there a good explanation about the massive overkill?

I can understand a jealousy killing. But why not more of a "Liz Stride" job--a cut throat or a bullet, and then retreat?

Cheers.
LC

[ianincleveland]

Hello Ian. I agree about his behaviour being suspicious. But is there a good explanation about the massive overkill?

I can understand a jealousy killing. But why not more of a "Liz Stride" job--a cut throat or a bullet, and then retreat?

Cheers.
LC

The only explaination there could possibly be is temporary insanity,or perhaps,to make it look as though it was part of the JTR murders.

Im not certain but did the heart actually get removed from Marys body? If it did that MAY indicate a personal connection between Mary and her killer.

As i said earlier im no ripperologist,but ive always thought something fishy with Mary and McCarthy.I think the Met Police at the time,assumed this was a JTR murder,and apart from questioning Joe Barnett and taking Hutchinsons statement(which i think was complete fabrication and made in the hope of selling it to the star or some other newspaper) they didnt investigate anyone else close to Mary.

[Robert]

Glenn Anderson used to say that he'd seen photos of "crimes of passion" murders that were worse than Kelly's. And I think Stewart once said that Dew was laying the horror on liberally in order to sell his book, as he'd have seen worse things than that in his career.I just think that Kelly was a Ripper victim, pure and simple.

I seem to remember once reading a newspaper report which said that Mrs Mccarthy used to go round collecting the rents, but I cannot locate it now. It might be that McCarthy had told Kelly on the Thursday that she'd better pay something by Friday or else she was out, hence her buttonholing Hutchinson.

Yes I never thought of the other residents - Mccarthy would not want them to get the idea that they too could run up arrears. That could be an argument for the arrears at least being genuine, and not something invented by McCarthy to gain for himself a "compassionate" image and deflect criticism of himself for being a slum landlord. Of course we just don't know whether the police looked at McCarthy's rent book. So much has been damnably destroyed.

[lynn cates]

copycat

Hello Ian. Thanks.

"The only explanation there could possibly be is temporary insanity,or perhaps, to make it look as though it was part of the JTR murders."

Insanity looks quite tempting and, I daresay, that is what makes Fleming somewhat attractive.

A pure copycat? Possible, but if I were doing such, I think I would have stopped with a cut throat and possibly facial mutilations. Why strip the thighs and remove the breasts?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

passion

Hello Robert. Thanks.

"Glenn Anderson used to say that he'd seen photos of "crimes of passion" murders that were worse than Kelly's."

Hmm? I may need a bit of convincing here. If true, I may be over judging her case.

Cheers.
LC

[Robert]

Hi Lynn

Yes, difficult to understand, and Glenn didn't post such pics, but he did research for his book about Swedish prostitute murders and he wasn't given to exaggeration.

[ianincleveland]

now i dont imagine McCarthy would admit to having a thing with mary

Glenn Anderson used to say that he'd seen photos of "crimes of passion" murders that were worse than Kelly's. And I think Stewart once said that Dew was laying the horror on liberally in order to sell his book, as he'd have seen worse things than that in his career.I just think that Kelly was a Ripper victim, pure and simple.

I seem to remember once reading a newspaper report which said that Mrs Mccarthy used to go round collecting the rents, but I cannot locate it now. It might be that McCarthy had told Kelly on the Thursday that she'd better pay something by Friday or else she was out, hence her buttonholing Hutchinson.

Yes I never thought of the other residents - Mccarthy would not want them to get the idea that they too could run up arrears. That could be an argument for the arrears at least being genuine, and not something invented by McCarthy to gain for himself a "compassionate" image and deflect criticism of himself for being a slum landlord. Of course we just don't know whether the police looked at McCarthy's rent book. So much has been damnably destroyed.

if Mrs McCarthy usually collected the rents,why did she allow Mary to get 6 weeks behind? more to the point why was Bowyer sent on the Saturday morning to get Marys rent and not mrs mcCarthy?.did he try to collect rent off the other tenants??We dont know,but we can presume(always a dangerous thing to do ) if he did that at least one of them would have mentioned it in their statements.

Id love to know what the reactions of his other tenants were to Marys arrears.I dont imagine for a second any of the others had arrears like this,you dont run a business and rent rooms out in a place like Dorset Street and be soft with the locals or theyd walk all over you.

[lynn cates]

verification

Hello Robert. Thanks. Good point, well taken.

Perhaps it behooves us to poke around a bit and see for ourselves? If true, then her case seems much less extraordinary and I could rule back in several blokes I've previously ruled out.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

smack!

Hello Ian.

"Now I don't imagine McCarthy would admit to having a thing with Mary."

Indeed. If she were like my missus, she might take it ill. (Of course, mine would consider the report a hoax and laugh hysterically--rightly so.)

Cheers.
LC

[Heinrich]

There is no way that McCarthy had a thing going with Mary Kelly without the neighborhood knowing and telling.
He likely had a soft spot for her, allowing her to get behind after the killer, Joseph Barnett, had lost his job, leaving Mary high and dry.

[Robert]

"why was Bowyer sent on the Saturday morning to get Marys rent...."

Yes Ian, especially since Mary had been dead since Friday. I guess McCarthy was hellbent on getting his rent.

Lynn, I always find it difficult to work up an interest in other murders, but if I see any outlandishly bloody goings on, I'll post them.

Heinrich, are you bashing Joe again?

[ianincleveland]

There is no way that McCarthy had a thing going with Mary Kelly without the neighborhood knowing and telling.
He likely had a soft spot for her, allowing her to get behind after the killer, Joseph Barnett, had lost his job, leaving Mary high and dry.

As i said earlier in the thread,could not the arguments between joe and mary be over mccarthy?.perhaps Joe knew mary and mccarthy were carrying on,but certainly at first did nothing as he was getting a free roof over his head??.

Ive read Mccarthy was a great giver to charitable organisations,and that perhaps stops some people from seeing him as the potentail killer of Mary.Lets not forget the Kray twins,who both murdered at least one man each were also very charitable.

His behaviour is extremely suspicous,much more so than Joe Barnetts was.Do you think Joe just killed Mary or do you believe he killed the others as well?butchering people,in public places to try and get his girlfriend off the streets is a bit extreme,why not just a single quick stab?

Whatt im trying to get at is McCarthy has a lot of unanswered questions about himself and Mary,and behaved very oddly(no keys,sending Bowyer for the rent etc).You may not think he killed Mary but why did he behave so strangely??

[ianincleveland]

"why was Bowyer sent on the Saturday morning to get Marys rent...."

Yes Ian, especially since Mary had been dead since Friday. I guess McCarthy was hellbent on getting his rent.

Lynn, I always find it difficult to work up an interest in other murders, but if I see any outlandishly bloody goings on, I'll post them.

Heinrich, are you bashing Joe again?

Or carrying on the assumption that Mary was still alive

[Lord-z]

A pure copycat? Possible, but if I were doing such, I think I would have stopped with a cut throat and possibly facial mutilations. Why strip the thighs and remove the breasts?

To play Devils Advocate for a second, I do believe that MJK was a Ripper Victim, but I seem to remember reading that the murderers were being tall-taled around Whitechapel, that people were exaggerating the facts. Maybe someone saw a victim, tells their friends that they were stabbed badly, who tells their friends that they were stabbed even worse. A feather turns into five hens and before you know it, the story around the pubtable is that the Ripper strips the flesh from the bones of his victims. A would-be murderer hears the story, and decides to emulate not the facts, but the story as he knows it.