Did Jack Mean To Come Back?

[Robert]

Glenn Anderson used to say that he'd seen photos of "crimes of passion" murders that were worse than Kelly's. And I think Stewart once said that Dew was laying the horror on liberally in order to sell his book, as he'd have seen worse things than that in his career.I just think that Kelly was a Ripper victim, pure and simple.

I seem to remember once reading a newspaper report which said that Mrs Mccarthy used to go round collecting the rents, but I cannot locate it now. It might be that McCarthy had told Kelly on the Thursday that she'd better pay something by Friday or else she was out, hence her buttonholing Hutchinson.

Yes I never thought of the other residents - Mccarthy would not want them to get the idea that they too could run up arrears. That could be an argument for the arrears at least being genuine, and not something invented by McCarthy to gain for himself a "compassionate" image and deflect criticism of himself for being a slum landlord. Of course we just don't know whether the police looked at McCarthy's rent book. So much has been damnably destroyed.

[ianincleveland]

Hello Ian. I agree about his behaviour being suspicious. But is there a good explanation about the massive overkill?

I can understand a jealousy killing. But why not more of a "Liz Stride" job--a cut throat or a bullet, and then retreat?

Cheers.
LC

The only explaination there could possibly be is temporary insanity,or perhaps,to make it look as though it was part of the JTR murders.

Im not certain but did the heart actually get removed from Marys body? If it did that MAY indicate a personal connection between Mary and her killer.

As i said earlier im no ripperologist,but ive always thought something fishy with Mary and McCarthy.I think the Met Police at the time,assumed this was a JTR murder,and apart from questioning Joe Barnett and taking Hutchinsons statement(which i think was complete fabrication and made in the hope of selling it to the star or some other newspaper) they didnt investigate anyone else close to Mary.

[lynn cates]

overkill

Hello Ian. I agree about his behaviour being suspicious. But is there a good explanation about the massive overkill?

I can understand a jealousy killing. But why not more of a "Liz Stride" job--a cut throat or a bullet, and then retreat?

Cheers.
LC

[ianincleveland]

This is pure speculation, but Barnett lost his Billingsgate job for some reason or other. McCarthy's shop sold food. What if Barnett was knocking off fish for McCarthy? Barnett's found out, loses his job, but McCarthy waits a while to see if Joe can establish himself in another job with the same mutual benefits.

Possible but Joe then left.To speculate more was the argument between Mary and Joe about Mccarthy?

And if there was,as i believe,an affair between Mary and McCarthy,firstly did any of the others in millers court know,and did they keep quiet for fear of being turned out on the street? i wonder also what their reaction was when they found kelly owed 6 weeks of rent money??? Id also love to know if Bowyer went for rent every Saturday,id have thought the chances of getting money were better the day after it being Lord Mayors show day and the chance for Mary to find some clients.so if Bowyer didnt go every Saturday for rent is it possible McCarthy sent him to avoid being in the position of finding Marys body.

To speculate yet further,if there was a thing between Mary and Mccarthy,that would increase his likelihood of being her killer.

i may be wildly wrong but Mccarthys behaviour with Mary,massive rent arrears,no key,possibly paying for her funeral,is all very suspicous.

[Robert]

This is pure speculation, but Barnett lost his Billingsgate job for some reason or other. McCarthy's shop sold food. What if Barnett was knocking off fish for McCarthy? Barnett's found out, loses his job, but McCarthy waits a while to see if Joe can establish himself in another job with the same mutual benefits.

[ianincleveland]

I just don't see McCarthy as being JTR. The profile just does not fit him for some reason. I do believe, however that there was most definitely something going on between McCarthy and Mary. Why would any landlord/slumlord allow a renter to become that much behind on paying the rent? It was also said that he paid for her funeral as well. I believe he was quite fond of Mary and I wonder what his reaction was when he viewed her body? Why would the man not have a key to his own property???? That is also quite odd.

I dont think hes JTR for a minute but ive a feeling he could have done for kelly.crime of passion?temporary insanity? if she rejected him or something it could have forced him to completely lose the plot.

i imagine tenants regularly did a runner,maybe owing a week or sos rent,so unless he got in to all his premises with an axe(an expensive way of entering) i find not having a key to be complete lies.

ill wager he knew that you could enter kellys room by putting your hand through the window,but he wasnt about to give that information away.

but im stunned the police at the time didnt ask him why he didnt have a key.Till recently ive always lived in private rented accommodation and every landlord,good and bad has had a key to my living space.i now rent off the local authority and wouldnt be amazed if they had a key as well,though many things have changed in the last 120 odd yrs,im sure landlords had keys for their propertys.

[lynn cates]

suspicions

Hello Velma. Just so.

But if I'm McCarthy and possess even a modicum of intelligence and ability to plan, I would know that admitting to having a key will cast suspicions upon me. And who needs that?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

key

Hello Robert.

"Why would McCarthy not produce a key if he had one? In order not to incriminate himself?'

Sounds good. Of course, one need not be guilty to wish avoiding incrimination.

"If so, and if he killed Kelly, then why would he pull the door shut, knowing that he might have to smash his own door lock next day?"

Although there is no reason to assume McCarthy guilty; if he were, he may simply have forgotten to plan, or, better, wished to enhance his "innocence" the next day.

For the record, I don't see too much hope for his candidacy.

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

"I just wont buy him not having a key and smashing his own property's front door with an axe."

Does look a bit dramatic, eh? Of course, producing such a key may have raised a few eyebrows.

LC

Hi,
To me, the eyebrows should be raised because he did NOT have a key. I would think that the type people to whom he rented would have often left without paying, maybe sneaking out, and that having an extra key(s) to all his properties would be routine.

Now, not owning up to having a key -- that is what looks suspicious to me.

Why in the world would he not have?

[lynn cates]

questions

Hello Dantae. Interesting observations.

I wonder how many vexing questions could be cleared up if it turned out that he DID have feelings for Mary and that he had inadvertently discovered the body earlier, and then (once he collected himself) had sent Bowyer so as to put a bit of distance between himself and the crime?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

theory

Hello Ian. Thanks.

"My theory is McCarthy was having an affair with Kelly and ALLOWING her to stay rent free,and the somewhat large arrears were for the benefit of his unknowing wife."

Well, that makes sense. Of course, if the Mrs. were aware, the question arises, "Why would she not ask hubby why Mary was getting a free ride (Oops, poor choice of words?)?"

"It would be interesting to know if any other Millers Court tenants had substantial rent arrears."

It would indeed. My conjecture would be that the "drabs" (hate that word) were not.

"I just wont buy him not having a key and smashing his own property's front door with an axe."

Does look a bit dramatic, eh? Of course, producing such a key may have raised a few eyebrows.

"It can be said in his defence he lived a relatively normal life after then but how many other killers have lived undetected and led normal everyday lives???"

All quite true. Of course, if McCarthy were the culprit, a good explanation needs to be forthcoming that explains the overkill.

One of the main points of the letter I cited asks, "Why did McCarthy choose precisely THAT time to send Bowyer to collect the arrears?"

Cheers.
LC

[Robert]

Why would McCarthy not produce a key if he had one? In order not to incriminate himself? If so, and if he killed Kelly, then why would he pull the door shut, knowing that he might have to smash his own door lock next day?

[DanaeChantel]

I just don't see McCarthy as being JTR. The profile just does not fit him for some reason. I do believe, however that there was most definitely something going on between McCarthy and Mary. Why would any landlord/slumlord allow a renter to become that much behind on paying the rent? It was also said that he paid for her funeral as well. I believe he was quite fond of Mary and I wonder what his reaction was when he viewed her body? Why would the man not have a key to his own property???? That is also quite odd.

[ianincleveland]

Hello Ian. There is an interesting contemporary letter reproduced in, "Scotland Yard Investigates" that raises precisely some of these same questions.

Needless to say, Evans and Rumbelow raised their collective eyes at this. So might we all.

Cheers.
LC

firstly id admit that i dont have the in depth knowledge of the murders as many on here,certainly not a jot compared to Stuart Evans and David Rumbelow.Or indeed yourself.

My theory is McCarthy was having an affair with Kelly and ALLOWING her to stay rent free,and the somewhat large arrears were for the benefit of his unknowing wife.

It would be interesting to know if any other Millers Court tenants had substantial rent arrears.

i just wont buy him not having a key and smashing his own propertys front door with an axe.

It can be said in his defence he lived a relatively normal life after then but how many other killers have lived undetected and led normal everday lives???

[lynn cates]

letter

Hello Ian. There is an interesting contemporary letter reproduced in, "Scotland Yard Investigates" that raises precisely some of these same questions.

Needless to say, Evans and Rumbelow raised their collective eyes at this. So might we all.

Cheers.
LC