Has MJK pre-London been found?

[JeffHamm]

Hi,

It's been quite some time since I've posted. However, I've recently read "Uncle Jack", which attempts to link Jack the Ripper to Dr. John Williams. Without going though all the weaknesses of the suspect side of the book (as in, there is nothing that makes the link), there was one part of the book that seemed interesting and potentially very exciting.

Unfortunately I've returned the book to the libary, so I can't provide page numbers, or exact details, but for now that's not too critical. Basically, in the book Tony Williams attempts to track down MJK, and where she lived, etc, before she moved to London. In the book he indicates he found a Mary Kelly, who lived next door to a John Davis, and that he eventually was killed in a mine explosion. Also, there were a fair number of brothers in the Mary Kelly's family, and they were, apparently, orginally from Ireland. Etc. And he makes some reference to her living with a cousin.

Has anyone had a look at these claims and verified the information? When I was reading it I was thinking he may be on to the right Mary Kelly, which would be a great find. However, the book is also written with a lot of "It could be ..." and "Possibly ..." and such, all which are phrases used to fill in anything you want when all you have is no real information. I don't recall this section being written that way, and he did seem to present his findings of a Mary Kelly in Wales, of the right age, and with appropriate supporting cast members, in a more well documented manner.

Has anyone debunked this claim of finding the real MJK?

- Jeff

[Phil H]

Others are much better placed that I to respond, JeffHamm, but I do not think anyone has yet conclusively identified MJK.

Mary remains enigmatic and the possibility remains strong (IMHO) that both her name and what she told others of her past, may be untrue.

Welcome back to the boards, Jeff - I see you must have been absent since the "crash".

Phil

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Hi Jeff.

Has anyone debunked this claim of finding the real MJK?

Yes. The Mary Kelly found by Williams and Price from Brymbo, Denbighshire, North Wales, had already been found by others and dismissed as a possible candidate for the Ripper victim before Uncle Jack was published.

For one thing the biographical details do not actually fit those of MJK. For another, the Jonathan Davies from Brymbo, who was supposedly her dead husband according to Uncle Jack, was still alive according to the 1901 census.

Actually, almost everything the authors have claimed to be evidence proving that Sir John Williams was Jack the Ripper has been shown to be either wrong, false, or in one case, apparently a forgery. Jennifer Pegg almost single handedly demolished the book in a couple of articles that appeared in Ripper Notes Magazine some years ago.

Wolf.

[Robert]

Welcome back, Jeff. Leanne has been AWOL for some time, so you'll have to have a pipe argument with yourself.

[Limehouse]

I have mentioned this before but it's always worth posing the question when MJK's origins are investigated - did any of MJK's friends mention her having an Irish or Welsh accent in keeping with her claims to have been born in Ireland and taken to Wales as a child? Surely if her story about being raised by Irish parents in Wales was true - she'd have at least a trace of an accent of either accent?

Also - I read somewhere that John McCarthy testified that MJK sometimes got letters from home. Now if this is the case - did any arrive after her death and if so - did anyone think to open them and reply - telling her relatives about her death? Surely then there would have been an adress and clues to her identity? If none arrived after her death - could it be that her family knew or guessed she was dead - and therefore either knew her alias or she was using her real name?

[Rubyretro]

Limehouse -I have some vague idea that Mike said that there were some brothers at MJK's funeral ? (in which case her family knew of her death).

I may be wrong, so maybe Mike will clarify that.

[Limehouse]

Limehouse -I have some vague idea that Mike said that there were some brothers at MJK's funeral ? (in which case her family knew of her death).

I may be wrong, so maybe Mike will clarify that.

Thanks Ruby. If that is correct then it is likely that:

1. They were informed about her death formally - so she was using her correct name or nearly correct name - OR
2. They recognised her name and address by reading about her death in the papers - so the above still applies - OR
3. They knew she was using an alias and knew her address and read about her death in the papers.

It is strange though that if they were at the funeral - they didn't come forward to attend or offer information for the inquest.

[Addy]

As far as I know no one has found the "real" MJK yet. And I never heard yet that relatives attended the funeral.

She did receive letters from relatives (her mother I read somewhere) but they arrived at another adress. Some say she read and answered them herself, others say everything had to be read out to her. So in that case Barnett for instance should know how she was adressed by her family. And at what adress her letters arrived. Perhaps this couls give a clue?

Greetings,

Addy

[Heinrich]

...
It is strange though that if they [Mary Kelly's relatives] were at the funeral - they didn't come forward to attend or offer information for the inquest.

Her relatives would not be needed at an inquest which was merely to establish the identity of the victim and the cause of death. It was so easy to do this without relatives that the inquest was concluded quickly.

...
She did receive letters from relatives (her mother I read somewhere) but they arrived at another adress.

Mary Kelly's landlord, John McCarthy, said she received infrequent letters from Ireland.

Some say she read and answered them herself, others say everything had to be read out to her. So in that case Barnett for instance should know how she was adressed by her family.

Joseph Barnett claims that she never received any letters from her family.

I would be inclined to believe John McCarthy over Joseph Barnett and I suspect Mary Kelly did not inform Barnett about letters from her family because she saw them as none of his business.

If anyone was to know about her family's whereabouts, it would have been the Royal Irish Constabulary who were represented at the scene of the crime in Miller's Court by two constables. Irish police records might provide further information.

[JeffHamm]

Others are much better placed that I to respond, JeffHamm, but I do not think anyone has yet conclusively identified MJK.

Mary remains enigmatic and the possibility remains strong (IMHO) that both her name and what she told others of her past, may be untrue.

Welcome back to the boards, Jeff - I see you must have been absent since the "crash".

Phil

Thanks for the welcome back Phil! Yes, I've been absent for some time. I agree with you, though, that there is the good possibility that Mary's past (and her name) were fiction. Eddowes, for example, is known to have told tales about her past, which were only uncovered as fabrications after her death. I'm sure it was no less common then as it is today.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff.



Yes. The Mary Kelly found by Williams and Price from Brymbo, Denbighshire, North Wales, had already been found by others and dismissed as a possible candidate for the Ripper victim before Uncle Jack was published.

For one thing the biographical details do not actually fit those of MJK. For another, the Jonathan Davies from Brymbo, who was supposedly her dead husband according to Uncle Jack, was still alive according to the 1901 census.

Actually, almost everything the authors have claimed to be evidence proving that Sir John Williams was Jack the Ripper has been shown to be either wrong, false, or in one case, apparently a forgery. Jennifer Pegg almost single handedly demolished the book in a couple of articles that appeared in Ripper Notes Magazine some years ago.

Wolf.

Thanks Wolf! Good to see you still posting. I must say, I'm not surprised to hear this. The book, as with most suspect books, had that feel of forcing things to fit no matter what. One could almost sense the relief of the authors when they failed to find any evidence of anything, because that gave them licence to speculate. I thought it unlikely that they could have stumbled upon the real MJK where so many had not, but then, as they say, even a blind pig finds the occasional accorn. Has anyone covered the debunking here on the forum? Would be interested in reading of the short commings.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Welcome back, Jeff. Leanne has been AWOL for some time, so you'll have to have a pipe argument with yourself.

LOL! Yes, we debated that and the key quite thoroughly. Still, it was good fun and really forced me to look through all the information and sources quite carefully. A shame Leanne has vanished.

- Jeff

[Robert]

Yes, I miss her. But I think she achieved her main ambition, which was to write her Barnett book and get it published.

[Robert]

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=107

[sdreid]

Yes, it was actually Mary O'Kelly.