Cwmavon Photographs

[Jonnieola]

Here are a couple of old images of Cwmavon which still hasn't been disproved (I believe) as a one time home village of MJK. Hope they are of interest.

[Jonnieola]

I have a few more of the area as well as these two.

[Jonnieola]

I believe they were taken aroun 1900. The long winding road is known locally as "The Snail Creep". There are many coal pits and ironworks local to this spot.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Jon,

Many thanks for these photos. Most interesting indeed. Looks like they were taken on a clear day. Strange how old black and white photo's look so "dirty".

best wishes

Phil

[Jonnieola]

They do indeed look "Dirty". Not a problem with my scanner though. I am using part of my own collection. I had these from my Grandmother who was born not far from Cwmavon. These prints must be at least a hundred years old. Original postcards of the time. Like some of Paul Hutchinson's photos these look a little the worse for wear.

There also would have been considererable smog in the area as well I expect. At least twenty coal pits in and around the area. Blaenavon Ironworks not far away. Pontypool and Pontnewynydd forges close by. Everyone had coal fires. Limekilns in the pontnewynydd area as well. I could go on....

[Archaic]

Hi Johnnieola.

Thanks very much for posting these photos, they're wonderful- and doubly so, since they were your grandmother's!

Can you please tell us how to pronounce Cwmavon? Thank you.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Jonnieola]

Well it is a bit anglicised as it can be written Cwmafon also. Pont -y - pwl which is nearby has become Pontypool and Farteg which is nearby has become Varteg...but that's probably for the best. Wow...phoneticially trying to sound out a Welsh pronuciation...Well one thing is for sure, with my accent if I said Cwmafon, Caernarfon and Carmarthen it would totally fool most non locals as I really think they are TOO similar sounding.

I think it should be pronounced Koom af on...(Af as in if)

but we are very anglicised hereabouts so we pronounce it pretty much as an English person would pronounce Carmarthen but the TH are swapped with a V sound and believe you me, if I said Cwmavon and Carmarthen quickly neither you or an Englishman in 1888 would tell the difference...

[jmenges]

For an audio version of the above, Gareth Williams goes into this on the first part 1 of the two Mary Kelly podcasts.

JM

[claire]

That's a great pic of the Snail Creep there, Johnnieola. I was just reading the other day about the murder of Mary Coakley in 1870 on that stretch. I'll confess an interest and say that I'm pretty interested in Cwmafon as a potential rather than Carmarthen or Caernarfon, not least because of the proximity of collieries, iron and steel works--also because of its ease of access to Cardiff and London and, as you say, it's bloody easy to confuse the pronunciations, with that single 'f' in Cwmafon being just like a 'v', and just like a cockney 'th' (I'm just down the road, other side of Ponty).

Thanks for the pics--and welcome to the boards

[Jonnieola]

Cheers Claire and nice to know someone local to me has an interest! The Cwmafon and Cwmavon pronunciation is all important I think.

When I was growing up around the area it was always spelt Cwmavon and it has only been with the resurgence of Welsh language groups that it has reappeared with an F in it.

And cheers for that JM and I've listened to Gareth and his pronunciations a few times and I know this is going to sound a bit silly but he is pronouncing Cwmafon too Welsh if that makes sense. I am guessing that Gareth is from a bit further west than myself.

The area around here is heavily anglicised and Cwmafon and Carmarthen sound almost identical. If anyone is going to The Cardiff Job in July they can listen to me pronounce the three quickly and I'll bet there will be very few who can tell them apart.

I have talked to many older relatives some who were born in the latter 19th century so unfortunately no longer with us. Plus of course some of my relatives were from Cwmavon, called Davies and worked in the iron and coal industries. They were born in and around Cwmavon so I have no reason to doubt that if MJK was raised in the area then she would have pronounced it very similarly to myself.

There again she may have had an Irish accent...

[claire]

And, of course, English was the order of the day at the time. During the 1871 census, there were very few Welsh speakers recorded. I'll definitely vouch for, whether with a Welsh or English spelling, the three sounding the same round these parts--most of us don't go anywhere near the Sara Edwards pronunciation of Caernarvon, for example; I'd have to have a few drinks before attempting it

[Jonnieola]

Yup. The second half of the nineteenth century was a bad time to be a Welsh speaker in Monmouthshire,in order to improve pupils' knowledge of the English language, the Welsh education system of the late 19th century employed the 'Welsh Not' or 'Welsh Stick' as a method of discouraging children from speaking in their native tongue. This small piece of wood was given in turn to individuals overheard talking Welsh, and whoever was wearing it by the end of the week was often severely punished.

As I said earler and Claire would agree...we are a VERY anglicised area...lol...and I wasn't implying that Gareth was TOO Welsh....lol...no such thing as TOO Welsh.

[Jonnieola]

Postcard

This is a postcard that has a 1931 frank on it. Note the spelling. Cwmavon. Nice little postcard I think.