The burnt clothing

[curious4]

Hello Fisherman,

People do strange and illogical things when in shock and suddenly seeing Jack hanging over you with his shiny sharp knife was about the biggest shock anyone could have got!

Don´t agree that he wanted to hide the face - otherwise Kate Eddowes` face would have been covered with some of her apron. And I do think Jack dunnit - mutilations grew worse with every murder (except for Liz Stride, of course) and I still believe that there Jack was interrupted.

All the best
C4

[Fleetwood Mac]

Kelly's position (close to the partition wall) at the time of her killing, Jon, suggests that she and Blotchy had been in bed together. Assuming Blotchy to have had no involvement in her death, it follows that he must have departed the scene before the killer's arrival. The most likely scenario, therefore, is that Blotchy set out for home or work and never thought to lock the door on leaving. If so, the killer could have entered the room with little difficulty and even less risk of alerting a sleeping and drink-sozzled Kelly.

We all have our own sense of that which is logical, quite clearly, and some of us prefer intuition over logic.

My logic is as follows:

JTR picked up women on the street.

It follows that it is more likely than not that he picked up Kelly, only this time she had her own place.

There is no known situation of JTR stumbling upon rooms, or deliberately looking for rooms before entering.

She was known to take punters back to her place.

In my logic, it follows he picked her up somewhere. Possibly the pub, possibly on the street. When pressed, I'd go for the pub. Perhaps he wasn't looking that night, rather a chance conversation in the pub led to an opportunity he simply couldn't resist.

I think if you analyse the whole idea of JTR making his way into her room while she slept you'd find there is nothing to support that, except a theory that no one saw her apart from Hutchinson after 12:00 and so she couldn't have been out and someone must have crept into her room.

In pratice, though, and it's actions that count, JTR did not sneak into women's rooms.

[Abby Normal]

We all have our own sense of that which is logical, quite clearly, and some of us prefer intuition over logic.

My logic is as follows:

JTR picked up women on the street.

It follows that it is more likely than not that he picked up Kelly, only this time she had her own place.

There is no known situation of JTR stumbling upon rooms, or deliberately looking for rooms before entering.

She was known to take punters back to her place.

In my logic, it follows he picked her up somewhere. Possibly the pub, possibly on the street. When pressed, I'd go for the pub. Perhaps he wasn't looking that night, rather a chance conversation in the pub led to an opportunity he simply couldn't resist.

I think if you analyse the whole idea of JTR making his way into her room while she slept you'd find there is nothing to support that, except a theory that no one saw her apart from Hutchinson after 12:00 and so she couldn't have been out and someone must have crept into her room.

In pratice, though, and it's actions that count, JTR did not sneak into women's rooms.

Hi Fleetwood
In your scenario then, given of what is known of the night, then there are three options:

1. Blotchy-probably picked up in a bar and brought back to MK's place around 11:00. With the evidence we know(Blotchy not really fitting most other descriptions, murder cry around four am, Drs TOD) he is not really considered a valid suspect. And would JtR have waited many hours once alone with a victim to strike?

2. A-man-Most people don't consider him a valid suspect, or even a valid reality

3. Unknown who MK picked up after Blotchy. But what is the probability that MK ventured out again after Blotchy? In my view-highly unlikely. her state of drunkeness, already having had just finished with a probably longer than usual time with a punter(and the late hour already) and terrible weather point to the probability that she was done for the night after Blotchy.

Therefore, it seems that JtR probably came to her door alone, which means he probably knew her.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Therefore, it seems that JtR probably came to her door alone, which means he probably knew her.

Hello Abby :-)

The thing about this is that if he knew Kelly it's fair to say he should have known at least a couple more of them, being a local man etc on the prostitution circuit.

And that in itself is an interesting discussion.

I'd go with this: he wasn't a local man, he didn't know any of them. But he was familiar with Whitechapel. Possibly a sailor who spent some spare time there, which I've felt all along.

[Archaic]

Hi everyone. Just catching up on this thread.

I want to thank Nats for the link to the 1901 article "The Worst Street In London" that she provided back in post #68. Haven't read it in quite a while and it's very good.

Hutchinson reported Mary's 'client' as saying something to her which he didn't quite catch, but to which he heard Mary reply "You will be comfortable." Maybe the man was asking something along the lines of "Do you have a private place with a cozy fire where we'll be warm and we won't be interrupted? "

I believe the killer wanted some light so he could add a visual element to his mutilations in order to increase the sick 'pleasure' they gave him. I believe he wanted the relative security of some privacy (at least more than was possible in the public street) and thus the luxury of a longer time in which to indulge his grotesque fantasies. He had probably also fantasized about being able to "display" the mutilated victim and the severed body parts in as shocking a manner as possible- a behavior often seen among serial killers.

I do think it's possible the killer had his eye on Mary Jane, and had somehow heard that she was now living alone without Joe, but it's also possible that he just happened upon her under the circumstances he desired.

I definitely believe that after Kate's murder his fantasies had escalated to the point that he desired to add the new elements of time, light, increased security and privacy.

Maybe it had taken him a while to find a suitable victim who had any kind of a private place, and that's why there was a longer gap between murders?

Best regards,
Archaic

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby :-)

The thing about this is that if he knew Kelly it's fair to say he should have known at least a couple more of them, being a local man etc on the prostitution circuit.

And that in itself is an interesting discussion.

I'd go with this: he wasn't a local man, he didn't know any of them. But he was familiar with Whitechapel. Possibly a sailor who spent some spare time there, which I've felt all along.

Hi Fleetwood
I think if JtR was a sailor he was local. I think JtR knew whitechapel like the back of his hand.

[Abby Normal]

Hi everyone. Just catching up on this thread.

I want to thank Nats for the link to the 1901 article "The Worst Street In London" that she provided back in post #68. Haven't read it in quite a while and it's very good.

Hutchinson reported Mary's 'client' as saying something to her which he didn't quite catch, but to which he heard Mary reply "You will be comfortable." Maybe the man was asking something along the lines of "Do you have a private place with a cozy fire where we'll be warm and we won't be interrupted? "

I believe the killer wanted some light so he could add a visual element to his mutilations in order to increase the sick 'pleasure' they gave him. I believe he wanted the relative security of some privacy (at least more than was possible in the public street) and thus the luxury of a longer time in which to indulge his grotesque fantasies. He had probably also fantasized about being able to "display" the mutilated victim and the severed body parts in as shocking a manner as possible- a behavior often seen among serial killers.

I do think it's possible the killer had his eye on Mary Jane, and had somehow heard that she was now living alone without Joe, but it's also possible that he just happened upon her under the circumstances he desired.

I definitely believe that after Kate's murder his fantasies had escalated to the point that he desired to add the new elements of time, light, increased security and privacy.

Maybe it had taken him a while to find a suitable victim who had any kind of a private place, and that's why there was a longer gap between murders?

Best regards,
Archaic

Hi Archaic
I basically agree about the killer desiring more. But not GH's A-man. I think he was a fig newton of Hutch's imagination.

[Ben]

“My logic is as follows:

JTR picked up women on the street.

It follows that it is more likely than not that he picked up Kelly, only this time she had her own place.

There is no known situation of JTR stumbling upon rooms, or deliberately looking for rooms before entering.”

The trouble with your logic here, Fleets, is that it’s very inconsistent. The ripper was not in the habit of targeting his victims indoors, but you’re clearly prepared to make an allowance for him doing so on this occasion, rather than attributing the Kelly murder to a different killer as some people do. This is commendable, but for some reason you’re not willing to make a similar allowance for a difference in pre-crime approach. This is the inconsistency, and unfortunately, it is also heavily at odds with what we now know to be true of serial killers, which is that different crime scenes invariably call for different approaches. Ted Bundy, for example, altered his approach to suit different circumstances. When out and about, he adopted a false guise to inveigle his victims into this company, but when it came to the indoor Tallahassee murders, he simply broke into the girls' rooms after monitoring the building from a vantage point, just as Robert Napper and Dannis Rader did with their victims, as I mentioned earlier.

“I think if you analyse the whole idea of JTR making his way into her room while she slept you'd find there is nothing to support that, except a theory that no one saw her apart from Hutchinson after 12:00”

This is extremely wrong, I’m afraid. The “theory” you’ve outlined is the parsimonious conclusion based on the surviving inquest evidence and the rejection of post-inquest statements that were discredited at the time. It is therefore closer to the null hypothesis than any scenario involving her meeting clients in pubs after 12.00am, which has no evidential support whatsoever. I’d be interested in your source for the statement that Kelly was “known to take punters back to her place”, incidentally.

As for the “you’ll be most comfortable” remark attributed to Kelly possibly hinting at a desire on Astrakhan man’s part to find a warm place where he wouldn’t be interrupted, this was probably the impression Hutchinson sought to convey to his police audience, rather than what actually happened. It’s interesting that he “forgot” this alleged remark from Kelly when subsequently speaking to the press.

All the best,
Ben

[Garry Wroe]

Thanks, Ben. You've just made the very points I was intending to cover in response to FM's post. As an aside, I will just add that Hutchinson claimed in his police statement that Kelly and Astrakhan met as they walked towards one another on Commercial Street. When speaking to reporters, however, he had Astrakhan loitering on a street corner for several minutes. This as well as other discrepancies should serve as a red flag to those who believe that Mary Jane may have gone out in search of business after Blotchy's departure. The fact is that there is not an atom of evidence to support such a conclusion.

[Ben]

Absolutely, Garry.

It may also be significant that Sarah Lewis made no reference to any light or signs of activity emanating from Kelly's room at around 2:15 when she headed down the passage into the court. Granted, she didn't specify that there wasn't any, but one might realistically assume that if Kelly and Astrakhan had only just entered the room, their movements and conversation would have been very much detectable at that time and location.

All the best,
Ben

[Garry Wroe]

Indeed, Ben. To my way of thinking the evidence points squarely towards Mary Jane retiring to bed at one o'clock. Thus her killer was either Blotchy or someone who arrived after Blotchy's departure.

[Abby Normal]

The trouble with your logic here, Fleets, is that it’s very inconsistent. The ripper was not in the habit of targeting his victims indoors, but you’re clearly prepared to make an allowance for him doing so on this occasion, rather than attributing the Kelly murder to a different killer as some people do. This is commendable, but for some reason you’re not willing to make a similar allowance for a difference in pre-crime approach. This is the inconsistency, and unfortunately, it is also heavily at odds with what we now know to be true of serial killers, which is that different crime scenes invariably call for different approaches. Ted Bundy, for example, altered his approach to suit different circumstances. When out and about, he adopted a false guise to inveigle his victims into this company, but when it came to the indoor Tallahassee murders, he simply broke into the girls' rooms after monitoring the building from a vantage point, just as Robert Napper and Dannis Rader did with their victims, as I mentioned earlier.



This is extremely wrong, I’m afraid. The “theory” you’ve outlined is the parsimonious conclusion based on the surviving inquest evidence and the rejection of post-inquest statements that were discredited at the time. It is therefore closer to the null hypothesis than any scenario involving her meeting clients in pubs after 12.00am, which has no evidential support whatsoever. I’d be interested in your source for the statement that Kelly was “known to take punters back to her place”, incidentally.

As for the “you’ll be most comfortable” remark attributed to Kelly possibly hinting at a desire on Astrakhan man’s part to find a warm place where he wouldn’t be interrupted, this was probably the impression Hutchinson sought to convey to his police audience, rather than what actually happened. It’s interesting that he “forgot” this alleged remark from Kelly when subsequently speaking to the press.

All the best,
Ben

“you’ll be most comfortable"

Sounds like something Hutch wanted MK to say to him. but obviously didn't.

[Fisherman]

Curious4:

"People do strange and illogical things when in shock and suddenly seeing Jack hanging over you with his shiny sharp knife was about the biggest shock anyone could have got!"

Perhaps so. But holding a sheet firmly in place over your face as your killer cut into it dozens of times would not be illogical - it would be superhuman.

"Don´t agree that he wanted to hide the face - otherwise Kate Eddowes` face would have been covered with some of her apron."

Think about it this way: If the killer knew Kelly well, but not Eddowes, what discrepancies would seem logical...?

The best,
Fisherman

[Wickerman]

....To my way of thinking the evidence points squarely towards Mary Jane retiring to bed at one o'clock. Thus her killer was either Blotchy or someone who arrived after Blotchy's departure.

Well, didn't Cox say Kelly was singing from 12:00 till 01:00 am, or thereabouts.
Blotchy arrived at 11:45, so may well have left long before 01:00, or even just after.

Cox said Kelly was still singing after 01:00am, while Prater returned to her room sometime after 01:20, and was in bed by 01:30, all was quiet and dark in Kelly's room below hers.

So long as Prater could have seen light & heard noise, movement, or voices through the partition, it seems to me that Kelly & Blotchy must have left. Perhaps after Cox left her room for the second time, and while Prater was in McCarthy's shop, at 01:20.

Prater had stood "at the corner" (what corner? - by McCarthy's shop?), so Prater should have seen Kelly & Blotchy leave if they left before 01:20am.

Tentatively then, while Prater was in McCarthy's, between 01:20-01:30, Kelly & Blotchy might have left Miller's Court.

So long as this time-window exists we cannot point the finger at Blotchy. And, it would appear there was no light from Kelly's room at 01:30, suggesting the fire was out, or not yet lit. I favour the second option.

So yes....

....Thus her killer was [...edit...] someone who arrived after Blotchy's departure.

Someone who arrived with Kelly for her second, and final, liason of the night.

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

Hello Wickerman,
Well, I will bow to your expertise on the matter of the key.

Oh heaven's no,... Bob Hinton is the professional on the Spring-lock,.....I'm just the piano player....