The burnt clothing

[Robert]

Garry, I seriously doubt if he could discern how many people were in that bed, even if he looked through the hole part of the window, unless he had a torch.

[Fisherman]

Greg Baron writes:

"it occurred to me that perhaps Mary and other ladies of the night had a signal that meant 'leave me alone I'm doing business"

Yep, Greg - that occurred to me too. I threw forward the possibility in an article of mine in the Examiner a few months back. The practice was a common one here in Sweden in the early 20:th century, I know that much.

I doubt, however, that a prostitute would go through the whole process of lighting a fire to use as a signal - that would be a rather unpractical signal, given the time and effort involved, not to mention that the fuel would perhaps cost money. I also think that many a punter would get somewhat impatient if their chosen lady started out the night´s festivities by lighting a fire...

Any which way, I think your suggestion is a very reasonable one, but I would opt for something like a candle in the window if fire was used as a signal. In Sweden, a lit lamp in the window was such a signal - and we know that Mary had just bought a canlde from McCarthy when she died!

The best,
Fisherman

[richardnunweek]

Hi
How about a piece of string on the door knob..... rather tied up at the moment.
seriously.. ..it was mentioned that Mary had string attached to the latch to save reaching right through the broken window,[ proberly on a nail that could be easily reached]
But that was missing on the morning of the 9th when the body was discovered,
Regards Richard.

[jason_c]

The above ideas may well be correct.

I think it more likely that any visitors would simply knock at the door and wait for a reply. We have her female visitor doing that the very morning she died. Her callers would know she was a prostitute, they wouldnt have walked in unless invited(and how could they without a key). Her caller that morning didnt even attempt look through the window.

It was Bowyer (landlord's representative) who looked through the window.

[Abby Normal]

Garry, I seriously doubt if he could discern how many people were in that bed, even if he looked through the hole part of the window, unless he had a torch.

Hi Robert
He could have heard them and possibly seen them if her fire was going at the time (even if it was burning low). Of course, if he knew her he may have knocked at her door-and told to bugger off.

[Robert]

Hi Abby

Well, Frank Sinatra did it his way and I think JTR did too. In other words, if Jack was as familiar with MJK's habits as Garry thinks he was, then all he needed to do was chat her up in the pub, get taken back to Room 13, and then do his attack in the usual manner. Instead of coming in on her while she was dozing, which resulted in her having the chance to cry out, and in defensive wounds, and in arterial blood pumping up the wall, and in her throat being cut from the wrong side, what he would have done instead was overpower her the moment the door was closed, and then lay her on the bed with her head at the foot end of the bed, and cut her throat. I believe this is what he would have done if posing as a punter, regardless of whether he knew her.

My own view is that it was sheer bad luck for Kelly that he shambled into the room to get out of the rain, and then the die was cast.

[Ben]

Hi Robert,

If the killer was familiar with Kelly’s habits, I consider it more likely that he “intruded” upon the dwelling and only attacked once he had a reasonable degree of assurance that she was asleep, something that he could have achieved using a combination of prior knowledge of her domestic circumstances and some surveillance of the area on the night in question. I would tentatively suggest that this is generally speaking the favoured approach of serial killers contemplating indoor attacks, and it was used to devastating effect by Dennis Rader, Robert Napper and others. Chatting Kelly up at the pub and escorting her home, by contrast, carries the disadvantage of exposure to a few witnesses too many, as well as the problem of having to inveigle and subdue her, which wouldn’t have been necessary if she was sleeping when he attacked.

All the best,
Ben

[GregBaron]

Good ideas all,

The 'Occupied' ideas are interesting and it would seem there would be some such indicator. I just think if JTR knew this he would have felt more comfortable and took his time. And Ben, yes, lighting a fire may have been too much of an ordeal for each punter not to mention expense etc... No one really knows how long JTR was in that room but from the carnage it seems to me some bit of time.....he obviously didn't expect visitors but probably also enjoyed the thrill of potential capture and if the fire was burning and a coat covered the window he probably felt more secure..............


Greg

[curious4]

Burnt clothing

Hello,

Jack might have been the one who took the lost key - using it to lock the door when he was doing what he did and locking behind him as he went which is why the door could not be opened. Yes, I know there are those who say this couldn´t have happened but why have a key at all if it wasn´t necessary and you could lock the door by shutting it?

Also, I am pretty sure Mary was sleeping when Jack entered the room, woke up, screamed and pulled the sheet over her head in a vain attempt to protect herself - there were cuts to the back of her hand and it was said that some of the cuts were made through the sheet.

With the door safely locked Jack could take his time without worrying about being disturbed.

This rather puts astrachan man in the clear, of course.

Best wishes,
C4

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby

Well, Frank Sinatra did it his way and I think JTR did too. In other words, if Jack was as familiar with MJK's habits as Garry thinks he was, then all he needed to do was chat her up in the pub, get taken back to Room 13, and then do his attack in the usual manner. Instead of coming in on her while she was dozing, which resulted in her having the chance to cry out, and in defensive wounds, and in arterial blood pumping up the wall, and in her throat being cut from the wrong side, what he would have done instead was overpower her the moment the door was closed, and then lay her on the bed with her head at the foot end of the bed, and cut her throat. I believe this is what he would have done if posing as a punter, regardless of whether he knew her.

My own view is that it was sheer bad luck for Kelly that he shambled into the room to get out of the rain, and then the die was cast.

Hi Robert
Thanks for the response. Blotchy sounds like the bloke she met in a pub (can of beer) but I don't think he's the killer. I place alot of weight on two witnesses who heard the cry of murder around 4:00 am so I dont think Blotchy as JtR would have waited so long to attack. I think the evidence points to MK not going out again after Blotchy, so the killer probably came to her door, which then in all likelihood means that he knew her and her living arrangements. I also think the evidence points to her being in bed and passed out which means that her killer snuck into her room via the door being left not totally locked when Blotchy left or sticking his hand through the broken window. Once inside he, since they know each other (and he not wanting her to see him) places the sheet over her face and then attackes-either by strangling or going straight for the throat cut. Sometime during the initial attack MK suddenly wakes up and screams out murder. Once she's dead he stokes the fire up for a little more light. He theres for an hour or so and quietly leaves around 5:00 am ish. In this scenario, it seems GH, Barnett, or possibly Fleming are the best (known ) candidates for suspician.

[Robert]

Hi Ben

But for all your killer's planning, he didn't make a very good job of it, did he?

Hi Abby

I think she met Mr A but the time until the cries seems to rule him out. I don't think it was GH, and I don't think it was anyone else who was watching the place, or GH would have seen him. I think it was someone else who came along by chance. Maybe it was someone who liked to ramble around at night and often came home muddy. Or someone who drank from the public tap - there was a tap outside Kelly's room. Who knows?

[Wickerman]

Hello,

Jack might have been the one who took the lost key - using it to lock the door when he was doing what he did and locking behind him as he went which is why the door could not be opened. Yes, I know there are those who say this couldn´t have happened but why have a key at all if it wasn´t necessary and you could lock the door by shutting it?

Hi C4.
The lock was a spring-lock, it automatically locked on closing, unless you turned the catch on the inside first. You needed a key to open it from the outside.

Also, I am pretty sure Mary was sleeping when Jack entered the room,....

This seems unlikely to me, that anyone could enter her room without waking her up, and that she would fall asleep with her door unlocked?
I think it's more workable to have her invite her killer in as a customer, or her friend. I'm not convinced MJK was killed by JtR.

Regards, Jon S.

[Garry Wroe]

This seems unlikely to me, that anyone could enter her room without waking her up, and that she would fall asleep with her door unlocked?

Kelly's position (close to the partition wall) at the time of her killing, Jon, suggests that she and Blotchy had been in bed together. Assuming Blotchy to have had no involvement in her death, it follows that he must have departed the scene before the killer's arrival. The most likely scenario, therefore, is that Blotchy set out for home or work and never thought to lock the door on leaving. If so, the killer could have entered the room with little difficulty and even less risk of alerting a sleeping and drink-sozzled Kelly.

[Fisherman]

Curious4:

"I am pretty sure Mary was sleeping when Jack entered the room, woke up, screamed and pulled the sheet over her head in a vain attempt to protect herself - there were cuts to the back of her hand and it was said that some of the cuts were made through the sheet."

It was stated that the top left corner of the sheet was "much cut", Curious. After that, it is up to ourselves whether we want to believe that this came about as Mary held the sheet over her face and the killer cut away ...
Not very probable, is it?

I think that Bond may well have been correct. He said that his take on it was that the killer covered Kellys face with the sheet as he cut it. In such a case, it would be more probable that the sheet was in place over Kellys face throughout the cutting. People who have their faces cut into mincemeat do not oblige by holding a sheet over it throughout the process, though.

Of course, IF Bond had it right, we are looking at a deed where the killer chose to conceal his victims face as he cut into it. And from that, anybody is welcome to make any deductions they choose to.

The best,
Fisherman

[curious4]

Hello Wickerman,
Well, I will bow to your expertise on the matter of the key.

However, in my scenario he did wake her up!

Best wishes
C4