MJK 1 Colour version - WARNING - GRAPHIC IMAGE

[John Winsett]

Hello Archaic,
I would love it if anyone would be able to bring something new to the table. I think, again, that I didn't express my self correctly and don't want to be obnoxious.
I won't belabor the point but digging up MJK and doing a forensic sculpture would add to our understanding of this killer. why did he select her? Was there something about her that he saw? was she similar in looks to the rest? There are always good reasons for wanting to know all about the victims.
What I can't understand is why people are so busy painting her corpse and not tracking down her family! I truly believe there is an image of her out there in some old photo album waiting to be discovered. If I could spend my energy doing that instead of wasting time at work posting this I would. Coloring these pics and doing facial reconstructions based on these photos are at best complete interpretation and will never come close to being accurate. As Ms. Coram said on her thread with her MJK pics; it's 90 percent guesswork when doing a pic of MJK, and as beautiful an artist as Ms. Coram is I don't take any of her pics as nothing more than interpretations of the events and they really add nothing of evidentiary value to this case.
So I will leave it at that and again I apologize to Ms. Coram as I did find her work very nice. I may not see it as forensic reconstructions as some of you but they are good and she is very talented.

[John Winsett]

What I mean by doesn't prove a thing is just that. doesn't prove to me she did any legitimate forensic studies. It just shows she is a terrific artist and I totally appreciate that. Not trying to be insulting to her, just stating my obnoxious opinion. But I will move on as not to upset anyone.

[Steven Russell]

John

"The proof is in the pudding". No it isn't. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Are you by any chance a football manager?

Steve.

[sgh]

What I mean by doesn't prove a thing is just that. doesn't prove to me she did any legitimate forensic studies. It just shows she is a terrific artist and I totally appreciate that. Not trying to be insulting to her, just stating my obnoxious opinion. But I will move on as not to upset anyone.

Yes John, move on if you say so, but before you go you owe my good friends a proper apology for the disgraceful words and accusations you have written here.

Jane is one of the most well respected honest and decent researchers there is.

Steve

[Phil Carter]

Hello John,

Whilst I am one of those who can be regarded as "different" in my interpretations of some things, as Steve himself knows, it must be pointed out that Jane Coram has WORKED in the genre of forensic reconstruction for decades, before she retired. I do not think her paintings claim to be of that genre, but an extension from it, an artistic extension if you will. Also, and more importantly, some of those paintings are her enlivening the known sketches of persons involved from newspaper articles etc. She enterprets the living images of the people who were once alive from what we have. She brings to life a name, a real person. That is not forensic reconstruction per se. Jane Coram has never, as far as I am aware, made those those claims either. Her words here were..

"...I did it because these women were living, breathing women, with lives and families, who should be remembered as they were in life as well as in death."

I believe a private pm or email to Jane Coram may be the order of the day, as well as the apology which you have again given in open forum...which is to your credit. I respectfully ask you to consider the former action as well.
Describing someone's words as the "biggest pile" has to be countered with pretty damning factual evidence. It has caused much stir, to those whom Jane Coram is a dear friend and acknowledged expert in her field. She is also a "diamond" in a field of rocks. I suggest you get to know the lady. She is second to none. Period.

best wishes

Phil

[John Winsett]

Hello John,

Whilst I am one of those who can be regarded as "different" in my interpretations of some things, as Steve himself knows, it must be pointed out that Jane Coram has WORKED in the genre of forensic reconstruction for decades, before she retired. I do not think her paintings claim to be of that genre, but an extension from it, an artistic extension if you will. Also, and more importantly, some of those paintings are her enlivening the known sketches of persons involved from newspaper articles etc. She enterprets the living images of the people who were once alive from what we have. She brings to life a name, a real person. That is not forensic reconstruction per se. Jane Coram has never, as far as I am aware, made those those claims either. Her words here were..

"...I did it because these women were living, breathing women, with lives and families, who should be remembered as they were in life as well as in death."

I believe a private pm or email to Jane Coram may be the order of the day, as well as the apology which you have again given in open forum...which is to your credit. I respectfully ask you to consider the former action as well.
Describing someone's words as the "biggest pile" has to be countered with pretty damning factual evidence. It has caused much stir, to those whom Jane Coram is a dear friend and acknowledged expert in her field. She is also a "diamond" in a field of rocks. I suggest you get to know the lady. She is second to none. Period.

best wishes

Phil

Nah, I think I'm done. You've roasted me pretty good. My opinion doesn't really mean anything as does yours, so I think Ms. Coram is fine without me kissing her feet.

[John Winsett]

Yes John, move on if you say so, but before you go you owe my good friends a proper apology for the disgraceful words and accusations you have written here.

Jane is one of the most well respected honest and decent researchers there is.

Steve

Actually I think you should apologize and pray to MJK for continuously putting her on exhibit. Accusations? possibly. Disgraceful words? is that how you describe someone else's opinion SGH? Not me. Keep up the good, but morbidly strange work on corpses. Maybe you can do the Lindbergh Baby next? Or you could try stitching the Black Dahlia back together huh? In any case I respect your opinion but question your reasons. Oh well, just my useless disgraceful words.

Remember MJK was a ginger baby so try to find a cinnamon crayon for the hair.

[Loublin]

As someone who is new to Ripperology, I have to say the bickering is not a very good first impression on this being a scholastical forum. Is really a color reproduction of a picture worth getting all upset about?

[sgh]

As someone who is new to Ripperology, I have to say the bickering is not a very good first impression on this being a scholastical forum. Is really a color reproduction of a picture worth getting all upset about?

Hi Loublin, and welcome to the boards!
It's not like this all the time, just now and again!

Best
Steve

[Loublin]

Thank you Sgh for the welcome. I look forward to future posts that may not be so unnessasarily heated.

[Celesta]

As someone who is new to Ripperology, I have to say the bickering is not a very good first impression on this being a scholastical forum. Is really a color reproduction of a picture worth getting all upset about?

Hi Loublin. Welcome. Sometimes the bickering goes with the territory. There are knowledgeable people here, and most of them are more than willing to be helpful. I'm sure you'll enjoy your time on the site.

[sgh]

Thank you Sgh for the welcome. I look forward to future posts that may not be so unnessasarily heated.

Well I'm pleased to see in your earlier post in this thread that you found the image most helpful.
That is the whole point of me doing the work.

As Celesta said, most people wish to be helpful.
Best
Steve

[Loublin]

As an artist and photographer I understand what you are attempting to provide to the case, and I think that is why I am a bit confused at why this would be such a charged topic. Any detail ( no matter how small) helps to clarify the case further. Especially to thoughs of us who may not have seen the particular photo as many time as others. To make a long story short, I appreciate all the time and effort you are putting in to your study.

[Archaic]

...digging up MJK and doing a forensic sculpture would add to our understanding of this killer. why did he select her? Was there something about her that he saw? was she similar in looks to the rest?

Hello John.

Disturbing a grave is no small matter. As I've already mentioned, the reasons for doing so must meet a very high legal in order to be considered in a court of law. The reasons you have suggested do not meet this standard. The faces of the other victims don't resemble one another; what difference would it make it we found out that Mary didn't resemble any of the other victims either?

There is also such a thing as respect for the dead and respect for their personal faith traditions. Mary Kelly was a Catholic. I won't go into all the theological minutiae here, but it would require very compelling reasons, extensive legal hearings, arguments and counter-arguments, and a direct court order before the authorities at St. Patrick's would permit someone to disturb the grave of a deceased Catholic who had received the Christian Rite of Burial and been interred in sanctified ground within a Catholic cemetery.

What I can't understand is why people are so busy painting her corpse and not tracking down her family! I truly believe there is an image of her out there in some old photo album waiting to be discovered.

Contrary to your impression, MANY people have labored for years and are still laboring in an effort to discover more biographical information about Mary Kelly. They are searching for records, a photograph, anything which will shed more light on her life. And not only because such information might lead to the identification of her killer, but because countless people feel genuine compassion for Mary as a fellow human being and believe that her personal story, whatever it may be, deserves to be told. The same is true of the other victims. If you had done your homework and endeavored to accurately inform yourself before attacking you would already know that this is true.

The passage of 148 years since Mary's birth, the fact that she spent her early years in Ireland and Wales, and the fact that she had the commonest female given name in the mid-late 19th C. (Mary) combined with two of the commonest surnames (Davies and Kelly) have obviously made this a difficult task. My own family comes from Ireland, and while doing genealogical research my father and I frequently encountered the sad truth that the little local parish Donegal or Mayo which held the hand-written 19th C. records had at some point suffered a fire, and all the records had been destroyed. There were no copies. If the parish register burned the records were simply gone.

Of course, there's another major hurdle to discovering documentary evidence relating to Mary Kelly's life- the fact that being involved in prostitution, Mary by necessity lived "under the radar". Dedicated researchers (many of whom are members of this forum) continue to hope and to search for more information about Mary. For obvious reasons it simply isn't possible for all of us to personally trawl through dusty written records in Limerick or Wales or London.

Many people have personal talents which are best applied to different veins of research.
-Perhaps you can take some time to consider what talents you yourself can contribute, John? Surely you have more to offer than just criticism?

Steve happens to have a talent for photographic enhancement, and he has kindly shared that talent with the rest of us. Like other contributors on this site, I feel that he deserves to be thanked for his efforts and contributions.

The tendency of some posters to meet the generous, completely free contributions of others with rudeness, personal insults, and even accusations of ghoulish and dishonorable intentions has driven too many fine researchers from this site- it has even driven them from this field. I find such behavior deplorable and I'm sick to death of it! It's worse than just "annoying"; it's selfish, stupid, and often personally hurtful to dedicated individuals.

Attack posts are destructive, both in the short term and in the long term. They bear bitter fruits that only damage our collective pursuit of History. I see them as being the opposite of what they typically pretend to be- they're actually insults to the memories of the victims. They're also insults to the shared hope that if we all exert ,there's at least the possibility that the victims might someday receive Justice.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Archaic]

Hi Loublin.

I want to welcome you to the boards too. Don't worry, you'll find lots of nice, polite, helpful people here. Hopefully the disruptions to this thread will cease.
(I hardly ever breathe fire, I promise )

You might want to keep your eyes peeled for a member named Chris George. He's also from Maryland, and an Edgar Allen Poe scholar to boot. He was on the 'Ripper-Related LVP Vocabulary' thread this morning. Here's a link:http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=5465&page=11

Best regards, Archaic