Toilets in Millers Court

[The Good Michael]

One assault on his mother (who died Oct 88), death threat on his wife, threatened suicide, a sexual assault charge that was thrown out, and two seperate charges for trying to pass himself off as a plain clothes detective.

Deb, I don't think his room number was ever discovered. Is that right?

Plain clothes detectives, sexual issues, death threats, Miller's Court.

It just makes you think.

Mike

[Debra A]

Mike, according to Chris Scott's transcripts of the Whitechapel Infrmary records he lived at #11.

[The Good Michael]

Thanks Deb... and Chris Scott.

Mike

Add: That would make Hanslope's apartment, if he lived there at the time, and if the toilets were in the back, the one with the best view of Kelly's activities on a window to window basis.

[Stephen Thomas]

From Mark's book, a hitherto unseen 1898 picture found by Rob Clack.

Note the brick construction bottom left.

[The Good Michael]

Thanks Stephen. Just as I pictured it. Notice that Kelly's larger window is directly across from that of 11. Looks to be about 8 feet apart

Mike

[Debra A]

Whoever lived at #11/12 would probably have able to see Barnett and MJK shoving their arms through the broken window to open the door?

[The Good Michael]

Deb,

Exactly. They would have been coming home late, making noise, and people always peek out when they hear noises, don't they?

Any research done on the Hanslope family tree that you know of?

Mike

Add: Duh. When in doubt look here: http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=64

[The Grave Maurice]

Whoever lived at #11/12 would probably have able to see Barnett and MJK shoving their arms through the broken window to open the door?

Interesting point. But wouldn't that also be true of the people in #3/4 and (maybe) #1/2?

[Jane Coram]

Hi,

The back window of McCarthy's shop also looked right onto the spot outside Mary's front door.

Hugs

Janie

xxxx

[Archaic]

re: Other Uses For Toilets

Toilets seem to be the ideal hiding place.

Hi Mike.

To me, toilets seem to be the ideal place to drop a bloody knife, bloody gloves, or a bloody article of clothing.

I know a guy who's a bottle-digger, and he excavates the sites of 19th C. outhouses. He told me he finds all kinds of rare 19th C. bottles, as well as the occasional gun, knife, or poison bottle.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Barnaby]

Hi Mike.

To me, toilets seem to be the ideal place to drop a bloody knife, bloody gloves, or a bloody article of clothing.

I know a guy who's a bottle-digger, and he excavates the sites of 19th C. outhouses. He told me he finds all kinds of rare 19th C. bottles, as well as the occasional gun, knife, or poison bottle.

Best regards,
Archaic

This is a really good idea. Has anyone previously attempted to conduct such a search at any of the toilets near the crime scenes?

[Debra A]

Interesting point. But wouldn't that also be true of the people in #3/4 and (maybe) #1/2?

Yes, I agree, probably one or both of those houses could see MJK's window and might have seen the 'window trick' to open the door latch being performed at some point. Just having a view of the door itself wouldn't give this away.

Roy, one day I will catch a message before you delete it!

[Nemo]

A person in the entrance to the toilets at the previous position at the end of the court would have a good view of the broken window in No.13, and also anyone in one of the houses on the left when they looked out of their window, ground or first floor

I suspect a passage in No.s 11/12 from front to back of the ground floor, with a door to the stairs in the rear left corner

The sketch has increased the distance between the bottom of the stairs(+door) to the wall adjoining the toilets

However, there is the possibility that originally each "house" was one dwelling and the stairs were indeed at the rear of the ground floor room

I've seen this arrangement previously

Stephen, what was the date of the Goad map(s) used to produce the layout in the definitive documentary please?

The brick building for the dustbins does look like that in the doc created by Jake with a door at left facing the court

This looks like a bad arrangement to me as the dustbins must have been very small to allow passage along the length of the dustbin room or there was one or two bins at the end of the room, which seems like a waste of space

What would Victorian brick-built dustbins look like? Are there any similar structures existing today?

We used to have coal cum dustbin sheds on our street to serve a number of flats, though these were quite wide and spacious

[Rubyretro]

QUOTE] When in doubt look here: http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=64[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

Thanks for this ! fascinating..lots of food for thought !

[DrHopper]

Excellent find Mr Stephen Thomas sor.
The physical attributes of Miller's Court has been an obsession of mine for a few years (when i have the time to research it that is), and a number of important issues are raised here.
Firstly, the new diagram answers a few questions regarding the internal layout of the houses- I have often wondered just how the upper floors were reached, obviously via internal stairs, but the where and what have now been answered. We now have internal dimensions (12' x 12' x 8') and an internal plan. Marvellous.
Re: the location of the toilets. The Whitechapel Board of Works Annual Report for 1878 (here http://www.casebook.org/victorian_lo...court1878.html) reports that the toilets are at the north end (i.e. the opposite end from #13), and yet the 1909 map shows clearly they are at the southern end. Also, The Viper's dossier on Miller's Court (here http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...erdossier.html) notes that there is a privy at the southern end, perhaps where they are marked in the 1909 plan. I am unable to lay my hands on my files at the moment to say from where he derived this information, but it rings vague bells.
These privies are not toilets as we know them - there is no plumbing per se, rather, a hole in a plant of wood and which is suspended over a container. The lack of plumbing means they are movable in a sense - their location is not dictated by pipes and construction. Thus, both descriptions could be correct - the toilets could have been in the north in 1878 and in the south in 1888, perhaps housed in the brick construction shown in the new illustration. This makes sense as it would be next to the water pipe, and allows us to understand the description given in several contemporary sources of the last rooms on the left being used as a storage area. Also, perhaps the 'dustbin' described as being in this area, is, given Victorian sensibilities, a euphemism of sorts?
Finally (and apologies for the length of the post). Because of the lack of plumbing in the toilets, the container had to be emptied regularly by the 'night soil' man. Someone who almost certainly would have reported something suspicious (large bloody knife, top hat, Gladstone bag, etc), but is unlikely, for obvious reasons, to have mentioned a bloody rag, etc. I feel sure, though, that the police would have searched the privies for clues.