Finger Marks ? WARNING - Graphic material!

[Scorpio]

I have just seen the full sized photo and it is Kelly's right leg in shot and not her left as i first thought.
Dr Hopper: i think you are probably right; Kelly's killer could have positioned himself between the legs or just leaned across her left. From the splayed position of the left leg, as if someone had moved it out of the way, i would guess the former.

[Errata]

Very convincing SGH. Well spotted.
Errata, I understand your point about their position, but place yourself between someone's legs and push their right leg away with your left hand - the elbow does not need to be very far in the air to produce an angle such as that on the leg, particularly if the leg is more contracted and bent upwards than the position shown in the photograph.

Yeah, but it still seems more natural to keep the elbow down and just push the leg, which would leave fingermarks pointing up towards the knee. And the more acute the angle of the leg, the more i would expect a palmprint. On a probably irrelevant note, women far more often than men reverse themselves that way, with an elbow at a right angle and the hand inverted. Simply because any pushing that would require pressing the upper arm against the chest to brace or support is more difficult for women. The support is distinctly less supportive. We can't really lock in the way a man can.

There is sort of another way it works, but it requires a lot of "ifs" and assumptions. One of the other mysteries surrounding that leg is the black line underneath the knee. I and others have assumed that it is an incision, in an attempt to disjoint the leg. Others say no, and as it is not catalogued amongst her wounds, who knows. Of course, we also do not know what marks or stains the outside of her right leg had.

If that is an attempt to disjoint the leg, and if there were similar marks on the outside of the right leg, i would assume that he made the incision on the inside of the leg, grabbed the outside of the leg to tilt it over towards the left leg, continued the incision on the outside of the leg, and then put his fingers under the calf and flipped the leg up again. And of course, all of this assumes that the body is still very pliable, and rigor isn't setting in, which would reqiure increasing force to move the limbs.

I mean, clearly very little is impossible. I tend towards Occam's Razor in these things, especially when dealing with someone who is most likely working quickly and therefore tending towards the most efficient movement possible. So for me, that particular set of marks look like finger marks, but not particularly logical ones. It's like if there was what looked like a footprint right there. Not impossible, but not logical. I would want to know why the killer would choose to depart from the logical. Was something in the way that made him alter his grip? Is he missing his left hand? that kind of thing.

[DrHopper]

All good points Errata. You have clearly given this some thought.
I like the idea of Jack using his feet! The mind boggles!

I shall do some experimenting hand mark using my wife tonight (that's my excuse anyway!)

Interesting about physiology affecting the way women use their arms and the pressure applied, etc. It is not something men think about, we do just take that sort of thing for granted. Something to consider anyway.

[Scorpio]

All good points Errata. You have clearly given this some thought.
I like the idea of Jack using his feet! The mind boggles!

I shall do some experimenting hand mark using my wife tonight (that's my excuse anyway!)

Interesting about physiology affecting the way women use their arms and the pressure applied, etc. It is not something men think about, we do just take that sort of thing for granted. Something to consider anyway.

Maybe they were playing twister when Jack launched his assault. Why dont you
consider an easier explanation?.

[Errata]

All good points Errata. You have clearly given this some thought.
I like the idea of Jack using his feet! The mind boggles!

I shall do some experimenting hand mark using my wife tonight (that's my excuse anyway!)

Interesting about physiology affecting the way women use their arms and the pressure applied, etc. It is not something men think about, we do just take that sort of thing for granted. Something to consider anyway.

finger marks are a hobby of mine, since i evidently do spectacular things in my sleep. I'm always waking up with finger marks in odd places, in odd positions and typically spend my first waking minutes trying to figure out say, how i got three finger marks under my right ear pointing towards my adams apple.

as far as women's physiology is concerned, the worst day of my life was when i stopped throwing a decent fastball and started throwing like a girl. I couldn't bowl anymore, i lost a good 6 seconds off my 50m freestyle.
stupid boobs.

[The Grave Maurice]

i lost a good 6 seconds off my 50m freestyle.
stupid boobs.

Must have helped with flotation, though.

As for footprints, you people must be thinking of Spring-heeled Jack. Totally different guy.

[DrHopper]

Maybe they were playing twister when Jack launched his assault. Why dont you
consider an easier explanation?.

I don't think anyone is actually considering feet as an option, Errata was making a point about unlikely things at the crime scene. And as for Twister, apparently it was massively popular in the LVP, and was a sought after "service" provided by prostitutes, along with Gin - hence the expression "Gin with a twist".

[sgh]

Skinning of the knee

Some good points raised by all!


Further to the assumption of bloodied finger marks on the shin of her right leg,
something else worth noting comes to question.
If we concentrate on the knee area, just beyond the black 'incision' mark, we can see a section of loose skin, the epidermis, hanging down revealing the underlying dermis.


Viewing the area I've highlighted on the enhanced crop, you can determine the shape of a 'skinning' cut.
Also the skin appears to be pulled back a little, noted by the rounded and shadowed edge on the right.
This edge is highlighted in a darker colour.

This leads me to think that the leg was held upwards in the left hand,
(re the finger marks on the shin with the thumb at the back as you view the photo),
then the right hand performing the skinning operation and then tugging the skin from the right to the left.

If the killer either sat on the bed or stood at the side of the bed to perform this operation it makes more sense that the shin prints are from his left hand otherwise he would have had to cross over his arms to hold and cut!

Determining this 'could' help with the sequenceing of the other mutilations on the body.
For instance, if he sat on the bed whilst he carried out the above, he would likely be sitting on the liver he placed between her feet! Not a good idea.