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The Broken Window

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  • So I will suggest, that Hutchinson saw a different man altogether, and that the description given was made up by the police with the intention of giving the real suspect a 'false' sense of security.
    Not possible, I'm afraid, Richard.

    Abberline sent a private, internal police report on the subject of Hutchinson's account and it included the full "Astrakhan" description. Obviously there were no advantage to be gained by giving his police colleagues and superiors a "made up" description.

    All the best,
    Ben

    Comment


    • Hi,
      Forgive me if the last post was slight 'off thread', we are discusssing the broken window here.
      Regardless of description I too accept that Hutch saw MK, with a man entering her room, but I dont accept he killed her, although the police and Hutchinson would have believed so..via medical reports, and cry heard, even if some ninety minutes later.
      Explanation for the cry, was explained by Prater at the inquest, with 'vocal 'interpretation.
      No acceptable reason has been given, for Mrs Maxwell to have been either mistaken, or having lied.
      And why would Maurice Lewis, inform a newspaper he was 'playing pitch' which was illegal, clearly he considered his sighting important?
      Off thread ..once again.
      Regards Richard.
      The broken window I feel, was never even noticed by Kellys killer, he simply walked in her door at 9am, with kelly waiting for him dressed down to her chemise.
      So its a 9am murder for me anyway.

      Comment


      • Chava:

        "that is the obvious explanation. And in general one I subscribe to, since I think that of everyone mentioned, Blotchy-Face is the best suspect if only because there are other witness statements in other events that sound like him. Particularly the attempted murder of Ada Wilson.
        However, to address the issue of a random killer, it is possible that someone who has the predilection to be a voyeur wanders around the area at night. Wanders into Millers Court. Sees the broken window through which he can easily pull the coat away to look inside. Sees a woman alone and asleep on the bed. Sees that the door is close and that it is possible to unlock it from the window. Attempts to do this and succeeds at the cost of a ripped arm. Now furious at the woman who has caused him to hurt himself, he kills her and basically rips her apart.
        I'm not saying this happened. The above is entirely conjecture based on the reporting of blood on edges of the broken window. That blood suggests the possibility of a random killer--I mean random in the sense that MJK did not know him and had had no dealings with him. However this could also point to to someone like Barnett, who admitted to Abberline that he had gained ingress to the room that way in the past.
        Whoever he was, if there was any blood trace outside the window or the door, it would be washed away if it rained. Was it raining that night? I think it was but I don't know for sure."

        Well, Chava, my own feeling is that cutting himself would not be the main incentive for this killer to rip people apart. It went deeper than the wound you speak of.
        By the way, do we know that the blood Bowyer speaks of was on the edges of the broken pane, as you say?
        And yes, it did rain that night. But if the rain washed the blood away, then how did Bowyer see it ...? He arrived a good many hours before the blood (alledgedly) ended up on the window.

        The best,
        Fisherman

        Comment


        • Hi Ben,
          I agree with what you have said about the 'internal report', but would he not have sent any bogus statement to his superiors , along with the authentic one, if the plot I have suggested took place.?
          As for his detective force, and beat officers, they would have been informed to apprehend any man fitting a description given to them at briefing.which could have been anyone..not necessarily 'Astracan'.
          I guess I am attempting to fight myself out of a 'paper bag'
          Regards Richard.

          Comment


          • Please let's leave Kudzu out of this!

            Fisherman, the rain may not have destroyed evidence on the window which would have been situated within a window case which was itself situated within a window recess. The only way the rain washes away blood from the shard of glass is is the wind is blowing directly at it.

            Once again, I'm not putting forward a theory, simply examining a possibility.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Bob Hinton View Post
              Or of course Ochams razor dictates that the killer entered the room by the door which was not locked after MJK's visitor left.

              MJK leaves the door on the latch for ease of entry and besides what is there to steal.

              She enters with blotchy face and has a beer and a sing song, she gets out of her wet clothes, lights a few rags in the grate to try and dry them and eventually passes out on the bed, blotchy face leaves forgetting to press the snib and lock the door.

              Killer arrives and finds the door on the latch and enters. He stabs down through the sheet which wakens MJK who manages to gasp out 'Murder' before she succumbs.

              Murderer mutilates body and leaves after pressing snib and causing the door to lock after him.
              I believe this is a very likely possibility. It could have been Blotchy or a subsequent customer that the killer was waiting for to leave.
              "Is all that we see or seem
              but a dream within a dream?"

              -Edgar Allan Poe


              "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
              quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

              -Frederick G. Abberline

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Bob Hinton View Post
                No I accept that Hutchinson saw MJK with someone in the street and later going to her room, however he was nothing like the description he gave which is totally fictitious. I use the phrase "Astrakhan Man" simply as a means of giving him a label.
                I also agree with this possibility if it was not Blotchy who GH was waiting for to leave.
                "Is all that we see or seem
                but a dream within a dream?"

                -Edgar Allan Poe


                "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                -Frederick G. Abberline

                Comment


                • Chava:

                  "Once again, I'm not putting forward a theory, simply examining a possibility."

                  That´s fine, Chava! But what about the blood being present at the cutting edge, as you proposed - do you have any confirmation of where that blood was situated?

                  The best,
                  Fisherman

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                    Chava:

                    "Once again, I'm not putting forward a theory, simply examining a possibility."

                    That´s fine, Chava! But what about the blood being present at the cutting edge, as you proposed - do you have any confirmation of where that blood was situated?

                    The best,
                    Fisherman
                    I can only refer you to the piece in the Daily Telegraph that I reported earlier. Bowyer--it claimed--noticed blood on the glass and then reached through and drew the 'curtain' back to see what was going on. He must have noticed it easily, so I imagine it was on the lower edge of the lower broken pane. That's where I found it, so I'm not proposing it, just pointing it out. There would be no splashes of blood on the window because, as I noted, the pilot coat hung over it from the inside and so any blood splashes would fall on that.

                    Comment


                    • Okay, Chava - then we have no exact location of the blood, and therefore we cannot tell whose blood it was. But we know that there were some pints of Kellys blood around in the room.
                      As for the pilot coat, we shall never know whether it was covering the whole of the window or not. And there are more possibilities around than the killer cutting himself or splashing Kellys blood on the window while eviscerating her! There is, for instance, the possibility that the coat did not cover the window effectively, and that the killer noticed this after already having had his hands bloodied. After that, he may have gone to the window and arranged the coat so as to better conceal his handiwork, smearing the window with his hands in the process. Und so weiter.
                      Whichever way we look at it, we are left with guesswork, which I think we both realize!

                      The best, Chava!
                      Fisherman

                      Comment


                      • of course, the other two possibilities are that:
                        a) the newspaper sensationalised in order to sell copy - i.e. this was never mentioned at an inquest which would be strange given its possible importance and the fact that the police must have spoken to Bowyer.

                        b) we don't know how long the blood was there. It could have been there for weeks. Maybe Kelly or Barnett cut themselves when letting themselves in and thereafter decided no longer to lock the door. Possible given all the people on this thread talking about far they would have had to reach through to get to the door handle.

                        Comment


                        • "It could have been there for weeks."

                          I´m inclined to believe otherwise. To begin with, the window was only broken on October 30:th, so we are left with ten days only, and also, Bowyer clearly connects the blood on the window to what he saw on the bed, and I think that means it would have looked fresh to him.
                          I prefer your first suggestion.

                          The best,
                          Fisherman

                          Comment


                          • I've been doing a lot of thinking about this. There are a number of possibilities. First possibility, the journalist reporting Bowyer's statement embroidered it a bit for sensationalism. He added the blood on the window as another horrific detail. Next, Bowyer reported the blood on the window for much the same reason as the journo. It made a very nasty story even creepier. But I doubt that's what happened. And if Bowyer was lying, I think I can come up with a good reason for it. He needed to explain to the cops and everyone else why he looked through the window. For some reason Bowyer doesn't want to admit he spied on MJK. He could have said his boss had told him to make sure she was actually out if he didn't get an answer, but I don't think he wants to involve McCarthy more than absolutely necessary. Blood would have been uppermost on his mind at that moment, so he talks about blood on the window.

                            However there is also the possibility that he did see blood on the broken glass. And that, as I've said, tells us how the killer entered and also if true removes both Blotchy Face and Mr Astrakhan from the frame. After all, both of those men were apparently seen in MJK's company, and she let both of them into the room. No need to break in there.

                            Comment


                            • It has been said that Kelly,under the influence of drink,might have forgotten to latch the door securely,allowing it to be opened from the outside.Further,that there was so little in the way of valuables inside,that a little laxity could be allowed.
                              I am not of that opinion.The greatest treasure of course was herself.Self preservation was ,and still is,the principal reason people take precautions,and there is no reason to suppose that she valued her hide less than anyone else.
                              She was under the influence of alcohol agreed,but not incapable,and habit alone might have been sufficent to ensure the door was latched on the inside.

                              She might too,have made note of the clothes left by the friend,and that combined with her own belongings,an added incentive to ensure the room was as safe from outside intrusion,as could be.She had little,but when that is all you have,it is the only things that are precious.
                              Unfortunately she could not safe proof the window.

                              Comment


                              • What if....... The killer followed Mary saw how she let herself in,waited till she was asleep and then let himself in?

                                Comment

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