MKJ murder, NOT mjk?

[Versa]

hi,
given that at least two witnesses claimed to have conversed with MJK from 8am onwards and that there were reports of people hearing someone scream 'murder' how likely is it that MJK let another prostitute use her room? MJK could of been the one to scream 'murder' upon finding the scene, she also may of recognised an oportunity to vanish? While i doubt that the identity of the victim has much bearing on the case I do wonder if it was indeed MJK at all. I'd be very surprised if anyone could seriously identify the body after such extreme mutilations.

[dixon9]

Hi Versa
we have a few problems with the scenario that it was not MJK

(1) was the other 'prostitute' already in the room when MJK was seen going home with a 'client'?
(2)If not when did she take up 'residence' at number 13 that morning?
(3) Why did MJK not come forward to say "hey i'm not dead"?

There are many on here more knowledgeable than me,but there are a few ??? to be getting on with.

Dixon9
still learning

[kensei]

Joseph Barnett identified the body as being Mary Jane. When asked how he knew it was her he said either "By ear and eyes" or "By hair and eyes" (opinions differ), but let's think practically. He had lived with her and been her lover for a significant amount of time. He knew her body and every mark on it. Even with the mutilation, I find it very unlikely that he could have been mistaken about someone he knew so well.

[bolo]

Hello Versa, dixon, all,

maybe these casebook dissertations could cast some light on your question:

Did Mary kelly survive?, by Des McKenna

Is Truth Stranger than Fiction? Some remarks on "Did Mary Kelly survive?", by Dave Yost.

Personally I think the theory holds no water. The testimonies of the witnesses who allegedly saw Mary on the morning of November 9th (Caroline Maxwell and Maurice Lewis) were the only source for this rumour but neither of them are trustworthy in my opinion.

Regards,

Boris

[harry]

One is entitled to consider the possibilities,and it can be argued as to whether Barnett could be a hundred per cent certain.Beside that there is the testimony of Hutchinson and Cox to consider,both in my opinion open to question,which could leave about 8pm the previous evening as the last sighting of Kelly.
On the basis of probability I would say it was Kelly.

[Lord-z]

I think there is evidence that Mrs. Maxwell might have been talking about a different Mary Kelly, or at least confused the days.

I think that speculation that she survived is just wishful thinking by a certain kind of ripperologist. The Ripperologists version of fan-fiction, if you will. "Oh, I don't want her to die. I am gonna fix it so she survives and lives a long and happy life far away from this life. I am gonna save her!". But it is sort of missing the point, as that would still leave a poor mutilated girl in a small apartment in Whitechapel, as if she was any less of a murdered human being if she doesn't have a name.


Don't get me wrong, the idea fascinates me, if nothing else because then we get a whole other mystery with its own set of questions.

[Phil H]

I remain open-minded on this issue.

On the whole I think it probably was MJK who died (though almost certainly not by the hand of the Whitechapel murderer).

BUT

We still don't know accurately the time she was killed, so I remain open to the idea that it could have been her seen by Mrs M, and that she was killed later. It's a low probability IMHO but possible given present evidence.

Mrs M could well have been mistaken, but stubborn, in which case we are back to MJK having been killed c 3.00am-ish (give or take).

Nevertheless, we know almost nothing reliable about Mary - we do not know what she looked like, and no one has been able to pin down her antecedents or past history (marriage, husband, France, posh-whorehouses and all). on that basis, and given my interest in potential Fenian connections, I am not prepared to rule out that someone else died in MJK's place (by accident or design). Could it have been the "Julia" referred to in evidence at the time? In that case, the "Oh, Murder!" heard by other residents of Miller's Ct, could have been MJK returning to find a dismembered body in her bed.

Far-fetched - probably, but I'll not rule it out yet.

Then again, it was probably MJK who died.

Bernard Levin once said (in essence): "My favourite composer is Mozart - but then there's Beethoven. It's Beethoven - but then there's Mozart"!! he couldn't make up his mind and neither can I.

Phil

[Versa]

Hi Versa
we have a few problems with the scenario that it was not MJK

(1) was the other 'prostitute' already in the room when MJK was seen going home with a 'client'?
(2)If not when did she take up 'residence' at number 13 that morning?
(3) Why did MJK not come forward to say "hey i'm not dead"?

There are many on here more knowledgeable than me,but there are a few ??? to be getting on with.

Dixon9
still learning

Hi,

TBH its not anything that bothers me or makes any difference really i was just interested in wether there was any doubt.

In my opinion it probably was MJK.

Why wouldnt she come forward? Well it looked like her life had taken a serious turn for the worse in the last few months/years and things were getting worse, if she had debtors (which i expect she did) being 'dead' might of been an oportunity for her to start again in some way?

As far as the identification goes its not unheard of for people to mis-identify loved ones and the extreme nature of the crime would make a mistake easy to make.

[Versa]

Hello Versa, dixon, all,

maybe these casebook dissertations could cast some light on your question:

Did Mary kelly survive?, by Des McKenna

Is Truth Stranger than Fiction? Some remarks on "Did Mary Kelly survive?", by Dave Yost.

Personally I think the theory holds no water. The testimonies of the witnesses who allegedly saw Mary on the morning of November 9th (Caroline Maxwell and Maurice Lewis) were the only source for this rumour but neither of them are trustworthy in my opinion.

Regards,

Boris

thanks for the links i'll have a look at them this evening.

[spyglass]

Dixon9..Hi !

In answer to question number 3.
We all know that MJK was an enigma, a mystery. We know hardly anythng of her past, and even if it was true.
Some people have hinted that she was possibly an imformer. We certainly know that after her death, nobody came forward with family ties and info, nor did anyone with family ties attend her funeral.
That could mean either she did'nt die or no one wanted to be associated with her.
If she was an informer or the like, and it wasnt MJK that was murdered, then it would have been in her intrest to be thought of as dead.

[c.d.]

On the whole I think it probably was MJK who died (though almost certainly not by the hand of the Whitechapel murderer).

Almost certainly?????

c.d.

[Phil H]

My whole post was phrased in the uncertain c.d.

I am increasingly convinced that MJK did not die at the hands of whomever was JtR - i.e. that she should be removed from the "canonical list" (as should Liz Stride).

But with this subject, who can be 100% about anything?

Phil

[c.d.]

Hi Phil,

What are your reasons for believing that Mary Kelly was not killed by Jack?

c.d.

[Phil H]

Basically I have come to perceive a close similarity between the murders of Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes - outdoors, almost identical mutilations - perhaps growing slightly worse - always against wooden fencing or gates where the victim appears to have led him. The type of woman too - faded, drunk, desperate is very much the same.

Stride I have come to see as a domestic - the murder much more readily explained if Kidney killed her because she had left him for another man - probably Jewish. Her murder scene was too public, she was not drunk (for once in her life) and she was assaulted and thrown to the ground in the presence of witnesses. Dutfield's Yard was too open, potentially too busy. Also the murder was the wrong side of Whitechapel Road.

Finally, I had never been happy with the idea of a frantic Ripper seeking another victim and finding Eddowes.

So the idea that not all the "canonical" killings were the work of JtR was familiar to me when I came to look at MJK afresh.

I find a different sort of victim (age, type, looks), a different scene (a room) different mutilations, and a long gap from Eddowes. I think MJK's killer could have been "inspired" by Jack, and perhaps tried to emulate him without knowing what Jack had done.

To my mind, the killer of Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes would never have allowed himself to be "trapped" in a room - there was no other way out except the door. I have always thought that Hanbury St was risky for him - potentially hemmed in, but just possibly he might have been there before, and cased the joint, as it were. I don't think that was true of Miller's Court.

Also, if Barnett is to be believed, MJK was frightened of something or someone. (I don't think, on the evidence I have seen so far, that Barnett killed her, by the way - it just does not convince me.)

My mind is open to the idea that MJK might have been caught up in something "political" (Fenian probably) and even that she might have lived and another been killed in her place - accidentally or purposefully.

So - while my current state of mind might not persuade others - I am open to the possibility that more than one killer was at work (indeed, if you reckon the parallel torso murders and the stabber of Tabram etc, there were probably multiple killers at work in late 1888) and indeed to other possibilities in regard to MJK.

I rest my case,

Phil

[dixon9]

hi spyglass,and all

thanks for that,MJK an informer?is there any links to this theory as would love to read about them(very fascinating).

Dixon9
still learning