Thoughts involving MJK

[AuroraSarintacos]

First off, that poor woman.

What a terrible way to go. Whatever ones thoughts are on her character, surely most can agree and point a finger towards the desperation of these women as the culprit of them leading such depriving, life-style choices.

To think one be born into life, and than as a child (whom, if you weren't privileged) would have to struggle through so much; and then if you survived to enter adulthood, there was a greater possibility of getting some form of illness and dying than-- that, or either ending in some other terrible way, such as an accident (like a ship sinking or mine explosion) or a violent homicide.

People look at these women and analyze them, but does anyone try to identify and relate to them on any different level than that? That could have been you, given the right circumstances---and what would you have done to survive?

That woman died in the most horrendous way; in a small, filthy, ill-lit, vermin-infested room. Can anyone imagine the panic that poor young woman went through? Does anyone even really care, to say the least? And what of the other women; like Polly Nicholas and her face (apparently) etched with pain?

We don't know anything about this victim, so we try to find answers--some look towards obvious solutions, while some others look more towards fantastical tales, and some are in-between on certain ideas and views of who this woman was.


I believe this woman could have been a rather introverted character, and there is possibly a good indication that she may have suffered from 'depression' (that's a hypothesis--she probably was an alcoholic for a reason.) I'm indifferent to the romanticized image of her being such a good-looking buxom lass, it may or may not be true. I do however believe that she was someone possessed of an above average education and possibly intelligence; that in comparison with the normal Whitechapel prostitute.

Well, that's my two pence on "Marie Jeanette"...

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Aurora!

Well, you can find empathy for them from, for example, the "Creative Writing and Expression" section!

And me personally; when I started to get interested about the case back in 2004, I was stunned by the conditions these women were living in!

All the best
Jukka

[claire]

Hi Aurora...

Surely the very attempts to piece together something of her life, whether fantastical or prosaic, are sufficient evidence of the general level of empathy towards Kelly (and the other victims)...it's not apron-wringing and teary faces, but is empathy nevertheless

Regarding the 'normal' Whitechapel prostitute, I think there is sufficient evidence that many women of very different backgrounds (the 'clergyman's daughter' identity notwithstanding!) found themselves in very difficult circumstances for very different reasons...if Mary were more educated or came from a better background than some of those around her, there were others who may well have fallen much further than she. That (then, as now) is the most disturbing element--a there but for the grace of God element.

[mikey559]

Mary...

I cannot imagine having to live in the conditions that these women did. Not sure what I might have done to survive.

[Jane Coram]

Hi Aurora,

Welcome to the boards.

Just to add to Claire's post.

Mary's life and death certainly was a tragedy, and without wanting to speak for other people, I would say that most people on the boards sympathize with the plight of all of the victims to a greater or lesser extent.

Some who post here have certainly had lives which were almost, if not as harsh, as Mary's and know what it's like to struggle every day of their lives to survive, so can certainly empathize with her and the other victims. It's hard to say what anyone would or would not do to survive until they actually get into that situation. I think most people would do what they had to if it came to it.

Researchers like Neal Shelden, have done amazing work uncovering the life stories of the victims and tracing their roots and their descendants, and have built up a picture of their day to day lives - more is being uncovered all the time. Hopefully, one day, we'll know more about Mary.

Although we know far less about Mary than we do about any of the other victims, it is possible to build up some kind of picture of what Mary's character and circumstances were like, even if we can't be certain about much of her actual life story.

Hugs

Jane

xxxxx

[kensei]

As far as Mary Jane's level of education, I don't think she was necessarily the best educated of the Ripper's victims as I recall reading that Catherine Eddowes was also very well educated. How worldly was she? She'd known Ireland, Wales, and France if her story is true, but Liz Stride was a child of Sweden. Was she introverted? Accounts certainly seem to suggest that she had many friends and that she was quite bold in her soliciting of clients and in defending "Mary's Corner" in front of the Ten Bells from other prostitutes. Did she suffer from depression, and was that related to her alcoholism? Well, probably, but the same was probably true of an awfully large percentage of the whole population of the East End then. I don't think she was that unique among East End women, only among Ripper victims in that she was the youngest and the prettiest and the only one killed indoors, etc., despite how much romanticizing of her there has been- and I am guilty of that myself, and am one who has shed a tear at her graveside. I think that if her husband had not been killed and they could have made a go of it, her life would have been radically different. It's ironic- if that had happened, she might have had a relatively happy life but been a complete unknown to history, but because her life took such a miserable downturn and ended in the way that it did, she is world famous. I can only shake my head.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
The first thing that hits me about Mary kelly is her tender years, I feel people seem to overlook that.
I am not saying she was not streetwise, but I have never accepted the hard image, of the gin drinking harlot standing outside the Ten Bells with her hands on her hips.
Reading between the lines , I would say she was a very respectable and caring person, who being young, occassionally went on a bender with certain men friends.
I also feel that she was easily led, and did not like to offend.
Refering to her prostitution, I would say that all the time Barnett was working, she was not on the game, however during that autumn she took the occasional punter, but she was choosy, and targeted influencial men.
I believe that on the evening of the 8th/morning of the 9th she was in need of money, for I belive she wanted to go to the see the Lord mayors show, proberly more so then paying rent.
I have a suspicion that Astracan [ who i believe existed] may have walked out without paying, whilst she was sleeping. leaving Mary in a dilemma, which resulted in, her allowing herself to be chatted up, by a middle aged market trader around 845, and believing it safe[ being daylight] invited him back for a 'quickie'.
Pure speculation [ whats new] but my thoughts of kellys character, and demise.
Regards Richard,

[SaraCarter33]

Wow richard your post is very thought provoking.

[Phil H]

How these unfortunates lived was and is appalling - a daily (nightly) fight for survival.

But MJK - albeit perhaps worried about the rent - was in some ways better off than most. She had a room of her own.

In some ways it is poor little Polly Nichols whom I have always sympathised with most - a family who it is clear still loved her in some measure, but cut off from them by alcoholism.

I also feel particularly sorry for Annie Chapman who was clearly very unwell and suffering, yet forced herself to go on.

Richard wrote:

The first thing that hits me about Mary kelly is her tender years, I feel people seem to overlook that.

On the face of it quite true, but I have sometimes wondered whether she told the truth about her age. Could she have been a tad older maybe> I hesitate to mention it but women have been known to shave a few years off their age. I recall (not long after 1888), Oscar Wilde having Lady Bracknell comment on a lady she knew "who has been 35 ever since she passed 50 which was many years ago" (the quote may not be exact)!

If mary was a young looking 30, maybe with good bone structure, nice hair, and aged well, could she perhaps have passed for 25ish, in a world where her peers looked older than their years?

Just a thought that occurs to me,

Phil