The origins of Tall Mary?!

[Carrotty Nell]

The contemporary newspaper sketch of Kelly is very interesting. (Here on Casebook if you don't know what I'm talking about: http://www.casebook.org/victims/mary_jane_kelly.html) I believe the artist consulted the local denizens around Miller's Court to come up with this approximate likeness (hope I've got that right, please let me stand corrected if not...) Note that here Kelly appears to be the same height as her window. I'm guessing that Victorian slum windows would have been at a lower level than the average modern counterpart, but even so, that is still some big, portly lass (like myself).

[The Grave Maurice]

I don't know, Nell. Even assuming that the artist got the proportions right, when you look at a photo like this

http://photos.casebook.org/displayimage.php?album=6&pos=2

the windows and doorway seem very low. If your eyes are better than mine, you might be able to count the bricks and multiply by, what, 3 inches or so.

I'm still searching the sources for someone who was quoted as saying: "Cor, she wuz a tall 'un awright, gov. Fairly loomed over me, she did, and I'm five foot six, I am." Haven't found it yet.

On a completely unrelated topic, have you read John E. Keefe's book entitled Carroty (sp?) Nell? My copy arrived the other day, but it will be a while before I get around to reading it.

[Adam Went]

I wouldn't be surprised if the meaning should be taken a lot less literally than her actual height. Many members of the lower classes were given nicknames at some point because of something they'd done or an injury they'd had, and it just stuck. It doesn't necessarily mean she was particularly "tall". For example, Henry Mayhew had this to say:

"Men are known as 'Rotten Herrings', 'Spuddy' (a seller of bad potatoes, until beaten by the Irish for his bad wares), 'Curly' (a man with a curly head), 'Foreigner' (a man who had been in the Spanish-Legion), 'Brassy' (a very saucy person), 'Gaffy' (once a performer), 'The One-Eyed Buffer', 'Jawbreaker', 'Pine-apple Jack', 'Cast-iron Poll' (her head having been struck with a pot without any injury to her), 'Whilky', 'Blackwall Poll' (a woman generally having two black eyes), 'Lushy Bet', 'Dirty Sall' (the costermongers generally objecting to dirty women), and 'Dancing Sue'."

So they sometimes had very different and unique ways of naming people, and it's possible "Tall Mary" was similar. The same could probably be said of "Long Liz".

Cheers,
Adam.

[The Grave Maurice]

We're starting to get confused here, Adam. Mary had several nicknames, but none of them referred to her height. Despite that, the received wisdom is that she was taller than average. What we're trying to establish is where, exactly, that idea originated. (The sobriquet "Long Liz" has, I believe, been resolved.)

[miss marple]

good genetics

Ireland was mainly agricultural country that had not suffered the devastating effects of the industrial revolution at the beginning of the 19th century. So for generations Irish agricultural workers had a pretty good diet that was high in milk or buttermilk which built bones. The Irish were generally much stronger and taller than the average Eastender. Many that came over after the famine worked in the docks, which requires great physical strength. the Irish completely dominated dock land employment due to their superior strength.
According to her real friends she was a tall lass about 5,7 or 8.
Mary on the bed could have been tall, I 'm 5.6 and my legs seem shorter in length when I 've tried that pose on my bed.
It depends on mattress length, It was probably between 5.5 and 5.10 inches long.
Mary on the bed is a young slender woman,note her arm and wrist. but appeared to have well muscled calf.
Cheers Miss Marple

[claire]

Didn't she say that one of her brothers was in the Scots Guards? Can someone verify that Guardsmen back then, as now, had to be a minimum height? If so, perhaps all her family were quite tall--it may have been unusual, but it wasn't a complete anomaly. It's not as if she were...6ft 7 (sorry, Richard )

[Debra A]

Here's an interesting little snippet relating to MJK's possible size from part of a larger article on the funeral of MJK from The Star (Saint Peter Port, England), Saturday, November 24, 1888. I can't guarantee any of this was actually said, but the whole article is an interesting account of the funeral itself and the reactions of the crowd.

..A little respite occured when the hearse drove up and the disappointed females who in the public houses had been diluting their beer anf gin with mandlin tears, thronged out. Everything else was forgotten in admiration of the coffin, which, covered with immortels, could be seen through the glass sides of the conveyance. Look why don't you look! Splendid! Ain't it lovely! I told you the body was short! were the cries of the female mourners, about 90 per cent of whom had babies in their arms...

[Carol]

Here's an interesting little snippet relating to MJK's possible size from part of a larger article on the funeral of MJK from The Star (Saint Peter Port, England), Saturday, November 24, 1888. I can't guarantee any of this was actually said, but the whole article is an interesting account of the funeral itself and the reactions of the crowd.

..A little respite occured when the hearse drove up and the disappointed females who in the public houses had been diluting their beer anf gin with mandlin tears, thronged out. Everything else was forgotten in admiration of the coffin, which, covered with immortels, could be seen through the glass sides of the conveyance. Look why don't you look! Splendid! Ain't it lovely! I told you the body was short! were the cries of the female mourners, about 90 per cent of whom had babies in their arms...

Hi everyone!

I think Debra's find is extremely interesting. It reads to me as if the 'female mourners' found their suspicions confirmed - that the body found in 13 Miller's Court was NOT that of Mary Kelly BUT OF SOMEONE ELSE WHO WAS SHORTER THAN MARY. To my mind that means that Mary was known locally as being taller than average. My own mother (born in 1919) was 5'7" tall and was always looked upon by her family and own age group as being 'unusually' tall. (You can imagine what they thought about me when I ended up being 5'10"!).

I realise this little thought of mine opens up that tin of worms again as to if Mary Kelly WAS STILL ALIVE THE MORNING AFTER THE MURDER but there you go. We Casebook members are a tough lot - have to be to keep our sanity - we can cope.

I'd love to know what y'all think!

Love
Carol

[Rubyretro]

I, too, think that if Mary came from an agricultural lineage, then she probably was tall.

I think that there is corraboration to say that irish immigrant workers in the East End, were favoured over born and bred runtish East-Enders.

As to why the coffin might be much smaller than expected : I think that a) the poor girl was in pieces and b) a smaller coffin used less wood and was surely cheaper.

Maybe they didn't use a 'bespoke' coffin for the full length of her skeleton, but something already made for someone shorter, and just fitted her in ?

[Carol]

I, too, think that if Mary came from an agricultural lineage, then she probably was tall.

I think that there is corraboration to say that irish immigrant workers in the East End, were favoured over born and bred runtish East-Enders.

As to why the coffin might be much smaller than expected : I think that a) the poor girl was in pieces and b) a smaller coffin used less wood and was surely cheaper.

Maybe they didn't use a 'bespoke' coffin for the full length of her skeleton, but something already made for someone shorter, and just fitted her in ?

Hi Ruby,
Many thanks for your post. Interesting thoughts.

Talking about the Irish being taller than the English - my grandmother (maternal) was Irish, from Cork!

Carol

[Busy Beaver]

The Ripper's Victims were between 5'0" and 5'6". Mary in some publications was 5'7". If the PC from the Stride murder is correct JTR was also about the 5'7" mark and he would possibly may have had a little bit of a struggle to get the knife into MJK's throat as quickly as the others because the other victims were shorter. Would the Ripper choose a taller victim or was he not too fussed as he believed in his killing skills?
Also going back to comments made about height, The Irish are quite tall. My mother's paternal side are Irish and the average height of the boys in the family is 6'0" and that's going back to the 1800's as well.
Busy Beaver

[RivkahChaya]

If she were taller than average, that might explain why she didn't wear a hat, because a hat would have then been above the head of a 5'8-5'10 man she was with.

5'7, though, FWIW, is tall, but not improbable. There are lots of women who are, for example, 5'10, which is tall for a woman, but not so tall that you might not see a woman that height every day.

Also, the victims in their 40s, who were all 5' even, or so, could have been a little taller when they were 25. People, especially women, and especially think women like Eddowes and Stride, lose height when they age and lose bone mass, especially in their spines. If Mary Kelly had lived to middle age, she might have ended up 5'5.

[Phil H]

If the PC from the Stride murder is correct JTR was also about the 5'7" mark and he would possibly may have had a little bit of a struggle to get the knife into MJK's throat as quickly as the others because the other victims were shorter.

But as MJK was almost certainly lying down when killed, why would a height differential be of any concern?

The Ripper's Victims were between 5'0" and 5'6".

Where does that information come from - and which women are counted as "Ripper" victims?

Edited to add: Welcome of the Boards Busy Beaver

Phil