The Davies Child? Really?

[Chris Scott]

Many thanks Chris
Does the age of the Elizabeth Davies you mention tie in with the "mother in law" listed in Merthyr in 1901?

I've just had a look and no - they don't match
This Agnes M Davies is listed in 1881 at the time of the census (April) as 3 months old which would fit perfectly with the birth record I mention earlier in this thread. But this Elizabeth Davies, her mother, is listed in 1881 as 37 and so would have been 57 in 1901, not 69.
But I shall keep on looking...

[Chris]

It looks to me as though your Agnes Mary of 1901 is the Agnes Mary Davies whose birth was registered at Merthyr Tydfil in the second quarter of 1878. She appears as Agnes M. Davies aged 3 in the 1881 census at 46 Tramroad Side, Merthyr Tydfil. Her father is John Davies and his wife is Eliza, aged 48, born at Breconshire Builth (RG 11/5313, f. 116; pp. 35, 36). Obviously there are some discrepancies, but this information matches up reasonably well with what you have from 1901.

Apparently there is a parish named Merthyr in Carmarthenshire, but the 1901 Agnes was born at Merthyr Tydfil in Glamorgan.

[Adam Went]

Some very interesting info here.....just going to throw a suggestion out there, and it's probably a ridiculous one, but.....

What if Mary really did have a child but the record of its birth was concealed, or the birth mother was given a different name/age, in order to hide the fact of a teen pregnancy?

Unlikely, I know, given that the age of consent from 1875 - 1885 was 13, and so technically MJK would have been legal anyway, but she was still very young and there could possibly be something to that....

Cheers,
Adam.

[Chava]

I've no idea whether little Agnes Mary was related to MJK or not. But I'm here to tell you that women in their very late 40s and very early 50s can and have given birth and it's not a rare occurrence. So it's very possible that Elizabeth could have been the mother-in-law. She would only have been 47 when Agnes was born. My own grandmother had her second-last child at 46 and her last child at 49 and I don't recall anyone talking about this as if it were strange...

And by the way, said grandmother was born in the 1880s in Eastern Europe and was bedridden for years with asthma and emphysema of which she died in her early 50s. So it wasn't like she was unusually robust of young for her age.

[Chris Scott]

Hi Chava
A salutary reminder that we should never prejudge - indeed my own grandmother was well into her 40s when she gave birth to my youngest uncle in the 1930s.
Thanks for the note
Chris

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Chris!

Well, I cannot swear this, but;

I have a reminiscent, that the oldest confirmed mother gave a birth to a child, while being 57...

All the best
Jukka

[Chris Scott]

Hi Jukka
Are we talking about with the assistance of modern fertility treatments or is that the greatest age for a "natural" birth?
Chris

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Chris!

Like I admitted in my previous post, it's only my reminiscent, that I could not have confirmed, but;

it's about "natural" birth!

All the best
JUkka

[Lord-z]

Good work, Chris!

You never know - you might be on the right track here.

Apart from the Allen Jones story, I never heard any memory, legend or myth of MJK having any children at all, apart from the little boy supposedly living with her (which I've always believed is a result of crossed wires somewhere).

Cheers,

Graham

As I understand it, during the first round of newspapers, it was reported that it was Kellys upstairs neighbour, who did have a son, who was killed. They got the name right soon, but the son stuck around, for a while.

[PaulWilliams]

Agnes Mary Davies

I have now obtained the birth certificate for Agnes Mary Davies, born 23 December 1880 in Ferryside, St. Ishmael's Carmarthenshire to Elizabeth nee Evans and Thomas, a railway labourer. The family are in the 1881 census with four other children, a lodger and Elizabeth's father, William.

[justwondered]

I am new to this forum so I am still unsure of the proper procedure sorry.
I am particularly interested in Mary Jane Kelly or Marie Jeanette Kelly. One question I would like to know is any ripperologists opinion on - if Mary Kelly was married and widowed why did she use her maiden name of Kelly and not Davies or Davis?

[Paddy]

I wondered if Mary Kelly called herself Kelly because thats what Joe Barnett was called at one point. Being Irish it would make sense that she named herself as his wife. I did wonder if the other earlier witnesses knew her as Kelly ?
Pat....

[Paddy]

This could be worth investigating

DAVIES, JOHN PATRICK Mothers Maiden name KELLY r
1878 J Quarter in MERTHYR TYDFIL Volume 11A Page 456

Pat.............

[Paddy]

My apologies it appears thie above was not a Mary Jane connection.....and mother was still alive in 1901

Pat...

[MysterySinger]

I wondered if Mary Kelly called herself Kelly because thats what Joe Barnett was called at one point. Being Irish it would make sense that she named herself as his wife. I did wonder if the other earlier witnesses knew her as Kelly ?
Pat....

That could easily be true but Elizabeth Phoenix (actually Elizabeth Felix) came forward after the murder and seemed to recognise the name Mary Jane Kelly. That was from Kelly's days at Pennington Road / Breezer's Hill and before Joseph Barnett.