Mary or Marie

[Albert]

Hi everyone, this is my first post but I read the boards with interest. My first read book on the subject was Donald MacCormick's, way back in the sixties and I was immediately fascinated by the whole subject and the period. My question is this, and I'm sorry if it has been covered before but if it is now accepted that Mary Kelly was 'Mary' and not 'Marie', who was responsible for putting Marie Jeanette on her headstone as evidenced by the photo in Richard Jones' Uncovering JTR's London? Thanks.

[belinda]

The story goes that her name was Mary Jane but she preferred to be called Marie.

Walter Dew refers to her as Marie in his book.

I'm sure others will be able to tell you more

[Bob Hinton]

Marie?

Hi everyone, this is my first post but I read the boards with interest. My first read book on the subject was Donald MacCormick's, way back in the sixties and I was immediately fascinated by the whole subject and the period. My question is this, and I'm sorry if it has been covered before but if it is now accepted that Mary Kelly was 'Mary' and not 'Marie', who was responsible for putting Marie Jeanette on her headstone as evidenced by the photo in Richard Jones' Uncovering JTR's London? Thanks.

I think the only official document we have referring to MJK,(personal to her, not witness statements) her death certificate, refers to her as 'Marie'.

[The Good Michael]

I think the only official document we have referring to MJK,(personal to her, not witness statements) her death certificate, refers to her as 'Marie'.

That's true, however, there is a great case to be made for her being 'Mary' as well. The problem is, it's all anecdotal. Even 'Marie' though it's on her death certificate, is as likely to be false as it is to be accurate. That's kind of the whole Ripper case, isn't it? Anything can be argued in a direction that fits a theory or a wish.

Mike

[kensei]

Of course the common story is that her real name was Mary Jane but during her stay in Paris the French called her Marie Jeanette, which she kept after returning to London because it made her feel classy in her otherwise pitiful life in the East End. At that time it's not hard to envision that name ending up on the death certificate if enough people knew her by it. As for the headstone, the one that is there now is not the original, nor were the two that preceeded it. Apparently there wasn't much of a memorial at all on her grave until the mid-1980s when a Ripperologist and huge devotee of Mary's named John Morrison had a large and elaborate one placed there, over a meter high as I recall, that referred to her as "The Prima Donna of Spitalfields." After a relatively short time it was either vandalized or stolen or removed by Morrison (no one seems to know which) and the cemetery replaced it with a simple white stone cube that proved to be so unpopular that it was soon replaced with the stone that is there today. The line "None but the lonely hearts can know my sadness" that appears on it is from a poem by Goethe and no one seems to know who chose it. Thanks to Phil Hutchinson for those details, from a thread about Mary's grave some time back that can be found at http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php=1975.

[Bob Hinton]

That's true, however, there is a great case to be made for her being 'Mary' as well. The problem is, it's all anecdotal. Even 'Marie' though it's on her death certificate, is as likely to be false as it is to be accurate. That's kind of the whole Ripper case, isn't it? Anything can be argued in a direction that fits a theory or a wish.

Mike

Oh I quite agree. I'm quite sure in my own mind her name was more Mary than Marie, I was just pointing out that the authorities on her death certificate had chosen the more exotic Marie.

[Chris Scott]

Oh I quite agree. I'm quite sure in my own mind her name was more Mary than Marie, I was just pointing out that the authorities on her death certificate had chosen the more exotic Marie.

Hi Bob
Also worth pointing out that her death certificate also quotes her alleged married name of Davies. As Barnett was the only one who consistently referred to her as Marie Jeanette (and even stated that this was the correct form of her name) the logical inference would be that it was Barnett who registered the death and this is why the details are shown as stated. But the certificate itself says that this is not the case, and that the document was based on info supplied by McDonald after the inquest on the 12th Nov.
It is also worth noting that the place of death is also incorrectly given as "1 Millers Court, Christchurch"
Regards
Chris

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
If I recall, the words used by Barnett at the inquest, when refering to his beloved Mary and her trip to France were' She tired of the life'.
This implies that the trip over the channel was not to her taste, and the term 'Marie Jeanette' which Barnett describes as 'affection' may not have been a favourite with Kelly at all.
Its almost mickey taking, especially as she was buried under that name, albeit aka Davis.
The phrase 'she tired of the life' may give us a insight into kellys character, for kellys neighbour [ name escapes] describes her associating with a drover called Lawrence, who she believed to have been her husband, and recalls that she [Kelly] used to go and stay with him , until she 'Tired of the life' and returned to the court.
Our elusive Mary Kelly seemed to have been a person that easily tired of situations, infact on the very night she was killed she allegedly remarked. 'I shall do away with myself , and return home to my mothers'
Mind you I dont blame her.
Regards Richard.

[Chris Scott]

Hi Richard
Interesting post
In one account of Kelly's time in France it said she came back after about two weeks because - and the phrase is ambiguous - she "did not like the part"
This could be taken to mean she did not like the part of France to which she had been taken or she did not like the part (or role) she was expected to play, presumably for her gentleman friend.

Also, I have always been interested in the fact that she was allegedly taken to France while living in the "gay house" in Knightsbridge run by the French woman. Was the gentleman who took her to France a French ex-pat himself? Did the French "madame" (in more sense than one) run a high class establishment in the West End for her fellow countrymen in London?

[Albert]

Mary or Marie

Thanks to all of you for your help - it seems that the more questions that are answered, the more questions that are raised!!

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Albert!

The problem with Mary Kelly is, that we don't know for sure that much about her!

Basically all we have, is the lifestory she told to Joe Barnett.

There seems to be certain logic in it, but as a whole it doesn't make sense...

All the best
Jukka

[Phil Carter]

Hello Jukka,

Indeed, one could also argue we don't know for sure it was MJK at all that was in the Miller's Court death scene...

best wishes

Phil

[Albert]

Hello Jukka,

Indeed, one could also argue we don't know for sure it was MJK at all that was in the Miller's Court death scene...

best wishes

Phil

Hi Phil, My problem with it not being Mary is, if it wasn't her why did she not come forward after the discovery in Miller's Court, and if not Mary, who was it? That seems too much like the 'From Hell' storyline.
Regards Al