Welsh Mining Disasters

[DVV]

Hi Jukka,

I didn't know that.
There is even not much about his brother in Chris Scott's book.

Amitiés,
David

[The Good Michael]

I was thinking that maybe a Maire ni chailleach might be a name to look for in the Welsh census and maybe in Ireland in Limerick. My guess is that she would have used the Irish spelling had she really been Irish and from that far west.

Cheers,

Mike

[Chava]

Here's the thing: if the guy in the Welsh Guards was in fact a boyfriend rather than a brother, then that's likely where she got the name Kelly. I'll have to check, but she got mail from this fellow, didn't she? She could have lived with him for a while, called herself Kelly because that was his name, and moved on from there. Which means that 'Kelly' is likely the deadest of dead-ends.

I'm back to the drawing-board. But something in that sob-story has to be true! Even if it's a tiny little detail...

[Chava]

..and a bit cat-among-the-pigeons here. But do we know for sure she was Irish? I've heard differing accounts of her accent. If she was irish and moved as a young girl to Wales I'd expect her to have more of a Welsh accent. My daughter lost her English accent and picked up a Canadian one right quick after we moved here. MJK's account has her living in Wales since she was around 7. If she lies about stuff--and I'm sure she does--why wouldn't she lie about that? She may as well have been born Mary Jane Griffifths as Mary Jane Kelly.

[Sam Flynn]

I have a sneaking suspicion that Kelly's soldier visitor was a paramour rather than her brother. Hence I anticipate another dead end in this context.

Hi Garry,

Might I suggest that you (or anyone else for that matter ) check out the following:

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=55202&postcount=5

I still rate this as the likeliest family match I've found... for what it's worth!

[Garry Wroe]

Many thanks, Sam. I recently heard the podcast in which you proposed some geographic alternatives to those normally associated with Kelly's antecedents and found your explanation most persuasive. As for the Halket Street Kelly, there are two main problems to my mind. First, our prospective Mary appears to have been born c1855, making her thirty-three at the time of the Miller's Court murder. So could the real Mary, with all her hardships and hard-drinking, have passed for someone eight years younger than her actual age? Second, and far more significantly, if Mary Jane was indeed the Halket Street Mary Kelly, why did not a single family member come forward when the details of the murder swept through Wales and beyond?

It is this factor, Sam, that convinces me that Kelly was not only living under an assumed name, but had presented Barnett and others with such an inaccurate personal history that it and the name Mary Kelly proved unrecognizable to those who knew her in her pre-London existence.

Having said that, however, it would be an entirely different matter if it could be established that Halket Street Denis was serving in the Scots Guards during 1888. I'm not holding my breath, though.

All the best.

Garry Wroe.

[Garry Wroe]

You're too pessimistic!
I'm not (must be the sweet weather announcing spring in Provence).
Let's check the records first, if possible.

Not pessimistic, Dave, just realistic - a consequence of spending way too many years wading through case-related archives, I'm afraid.

Enjoy the spring!

Regards.

Garry Wroe.

[Chava]

Well Gareth, a Mary Jane Kelly was born in Liverpool in 1858, which would make her 13 in 1871. Here's the appropriate entry.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I utter a sigh when reading everyones endeavour to trace our elusive Mary Kelly, for surely the only person who may have been able to supply major leads has withdrawn from Casebook.
I am of course refering to Fiona Kendall[ Yes Again] all we had to do was give the lady a chance to grap breath, and be a little considerate,
But unfortunetly that did not happen , and she left for pastures green, albeit agreed to give a talk, which I believe transpired, although well presented did not include what we all want to hear.
a] McCarthys views on the murder
b]McCarthys suspect
c] Information on the victims brothers residence
These and many more may have been released to us from the great-grandaughter of the owner of Millers court, whilst appreciating its only oral history...what a fascinating one.
And so the search goes on.
Regards Richard.

[Chava]

With great respect to the lady in question, family stories are nice but documentary evidence is nicer...

[DVV]

Not pessimistic, Dave, just realistic - a consequence of spending way too many years wading through case-related archives, I'm afraid.

Garry Wroe.

Hi Garry,

I'm likely to have missed something, but I don't know whether the "2nd battalion" trail has been thoroughly explored.

Even if it has led to a dead-end, I'd like to know.
And I still think that the articles unearthed by Simon give some weight to the Barnett/MJK story, at least for her family background.
Now was there a Kelly born in Limerick or Wales in this battalion, in 1888 ?
That's the question.

Amitiés,
David

[Chava]

I think Garry's point is entirely valid, and the more I come to think of it, the more I believe that Kelly wasn't her name. The MJK murder had to have been the most notorious and widely-reported murder for years. And unlike the others, no one came forward to claim her as blood kin. Nicholl's husband testified at the inquest. Chapman's antecedents and history were well-known. Likewise Stride and Eddowes were recognized and their stories noted and corroborated. In fact all, I think, of the victims both possible, probable and definite were known well-enough for their life histories to be documented without challenge. Only MJK is left without kin to claim her or bury her. Even if her family did not know where she was, in fact even if she was living under an assumed name, they would certainly recognize themselves in the well-reported history given by Barnett. It's possible they didn't come forward out of shame. But that was a big family with lots of sibllings. I can't believe not one of them wanted to see his/her own name in print!


So we're left with an assumed name and very probably an assumed history. However, as I said above, it's unlikely that the entire story was made up out of whole-cloth. MJK may well have embroidered some details and made up others, but it's hard to construct, remember and stick to a completely fabricated history. I'm convinced that bits and pieces of her tale were true. Which is why--expectationless but with a hopeful heart--I'm checking ancillary details...

[The Good Michael]

Hi,
I utter a sigh when reading everyones endeavour to trace our elusive Mary Kelly, for surely the only person who may have been able to supply major leads has withdrawn from Casebook.
I am of course refering to Fiona Kendall[ Yes Again] all we had to do was give the lady a chance to grap breath

Nonsense! She had only anecdotes and no one ran her off. She wouldn't answer questions and fled like a dog running from a Boshintang restaurant.

Mike

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Richard!

Hi,
I utter a sigh when reading everyones endeavour to trace our elusive Mary Kelly, for surely the only person who may have been able to supply major leads has withdrawn from Casebook.
I am of course refering to Fiona Kendall[ Yes Again] all we had to do was give the lady a chance to grap breath, and be a little considerate,
But unfortunetly that did not happen , and she left for pastures green, albeit agreed to give a talk, which I believe transpired, although well presented did not include what we all want to hear.
a] McCarthys views on the murder
b]McCarthys suspect
c] Information on the victims brothers residence
These and many more may have been released to us from the great-grandaughter of the owner of Millers court, whilst appreciating its only oral history...what a fascinating one.
And so the search goes on.
Regards Richard.

Well, I think, that you know too;

There has been so many "relatives" on these boards talking, that unfortunately so many of us have become suspicious.

I would really like to hear her talks too, but I'd like to confirm some things as well!

All the best
Jukka

[Garry Wroe]

I'm likely to have missed something, but I don't know whether the "2nd battalion" trail has been thoroughly explored.

If memory serves me correctly, Dave, both Chris Scott and Paul Begg have examined the regimental records yet discovered nothing of value. But, as I averred in an earlier post, if Johnto was a lover rather than Kelly's brother, his surname is unlikely to have been Kelly. If he was also a married man, it is unlikely that he'd have been eager to compromise his marital relationship by admitting to an illicit affair with Kelly. Perhaps, then, we shouldn't be too surprised that Abberline failed to identify Kelly's mystery Irish correspondent.

All the best.

Garry Wroe.