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  • #1

    Footprints?

    I've scoured all the books I can find including Stewart Evers's incomparable compendium, and I cannot find any reference to footprints in Kelly's room. I don't think it's entirely likely that the killer managed to kill her and mutilate her so extravagantly without stepping into blood, of which there was a quantity on the floor beneath her bed. Either he was bare-foot or he was shod, but either way, he must have left some kind of print in that room somewhere. He's only operating with the light from the fire, so I think it would have been hard for him to avoid getting blood on his feet or his footwear. I know the police were not particularly sophisticated, but they had to have thought that such prints would be useful in identifying a killer.

    Which leads to the possibility that there were no prints. That somehow he managed to cover his feet effectively and then get rid of said covers before exiting the room. Perhaps he burnt them in that very hot fire?
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  • #2
    chava,

    There were no foot prints because the blood was UNDER the bed, not around the bed. He wouldn't of stepped in blood so there wouldn't be any foot prints.


    Yours truly
    Washington Irving:

    "To a homeless man, who has no spot on this wide world which he can truly call his own, there is a momentary feeling of something like independence and territorial consequence, when, after a weary day's travel, he kicks off his boots, thrusts his feet into slippers, and stretches himself before an inn fire. Let the world without go as it may; let kingdoms rise and fall, so long as he has the wherewithal to pay his bills, he is, for the time being, the very monarch of all he surveys. The arm chair in his throne; the poker his sceptre, and the little parlour of some twelve feet square, his undisputed empire. "

    Stratford-on-Avon

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    • #3
      Whenever i see the picture of Mary Kelly on the bed from the window side i always see those 4 marks on her right leg over the shinbone area, these look like where the ripper leaned over and rested his fingers on her whilst he did what he needed to do.

      If only we could have those as fingerprints, mind you it would make no difference as there would be nothing to compare them to. Still, its creepy seeing physical evidence of the hands of the ripper (isnt that a film!).

      Comment

      • #4
        Chava, Nail,

        One thing I am supprised at is how Jack got out of Mary kellys room without leaving blood on the door knob???

        The hole in the window wasn't big enough to climb out of.

        Yours truly
        Washington Irving:

        "To a homeless man, who has no spot on this wide world which he can truly call his own, there is a momentary feeling of something like independence and territorial consequence, when, after a weary day's travel, he kicks off his boots, thrusts his feet into slippers, and stretches himself before an inn fire. Let the world without go as it may; let kingdoms rise and fall, so long as he has the wherewithal to pay his bills, he is, for the time being, the very monarch of all he surveys. The arm chair in his throne; the poker his sceptre, and the little parlour of some twelve feet square, his undisputed empire. "

        Stratford-on-Avon

        Comment

        • #5
          Corey, I don't think you can assume that the blood stayed under the bed. Also there was a quantity of flesh placed on the table close by the bed, and that would have dripped blood all over the place.

          Also we have

          I can't find any evidence of marks on the floor at all.
          Last edited by Chava; 02-01-2010, 01:37 AM.

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          • #6
            Chava,

            I am only going by Bonds report:

            "on the floor beneath was a pool of blood covering about two feet square"

            And I am sure even if there WAS blood on the floor, the killer would have made sure not to get any on his feet.

            That drawing is very misleading.

            Looking at a photo of MJK you can see the blankit did not flow over the side of the bed.

            Also, it puts the bedside table away from the bed while in reality it was quite close.

            Yours truly
            Washington Irving:

            "To a homeless man, who has no spot on this wide world which he can truly call his own, there is a momentary feeling of something like independence and territorial consequence, when, after a weary day's travel, he kicks off his boots, thrusts his feet into slippers, and stretches himself before an inn fire. Let the world without go as it may; let kingdoms rise and fall, so long as he has the wherewithal to pay his bills, he is, for the time being, the very monarch of all he surveys. The arm chair in his throne; the poker his sceptre, and the little parlour of some twelve feet square, his undisputed empire. "

            Stratford-on-Avon

            Comment

            • #7
              Corey, blood doesn't stay in a neat little square. That description would have been approximate. And whether the table containing the bits and bobs were right next to the bed or far away, the killer had to be near enough to put that stuff on. While it was doubtless dripping a large amount of blood, some of which would have gotten onto the floor. As for the killer 'taking care' not to get any on his feet, he was working with the light of a fire some 10 feet away. He didn't have enough light to prevent himself from stepping into an unfortunate puddle.

              As far as I'm concerned these are the main two possibilities:

              - there were footprints all over the place and the police either ignored them, or surged into the room mob-handed and ruined them.

              - there were no footprints at all, which means the killer came outfitted with a little bag for his bits and pieces and a few old cloths to tie around his footwear so as not to leave a trace. Add the knife, and he's got a fair amount of stuff to cart around...

              Comment

              • #8
                Chava,

                Well then I guess there would be no point arguing. The police wouldn't have ignored such a clue. So we can mark that off.

                Jack putting rags on his shoes would be taking care not to get his shoes bloodied up.

                It was approximate, but that was taken at the scene. The blood was probally congealed and clotted and wouldn't be runny. The body was found hours after she was killer.

                Yours truly
                Washington Irving:

                "To a homeless man, who has no spot on this wide world which he can truly call his own, there is a momentary feeling of something like independence and territorial consequence, when, after a weary day's travel, he kicks off his boots, thrusts his feet into slippers, and stretches himself before an inn fire. Let the world without go as it may; let kingdoms rise and fall, so long as he has the wherewithal to pay his bills, he is, for the time being, the very monarch of all he surveys. The arm chair in his throne; the poker his sceptre, and the little parlour of some twelve feet square, his undisputed empire. "

                Stratford-on-Avon

                Comment

                • #9
                  Corey, the other thing is I doubt the floor of #13 was level. Now that could work both ways, if it slopes towards the right-hand wall, then the blood would run away from the killer. If it sloped toward the left-hand wall, it would run towards the killer. But really, whether or not the floor slopes, or the blood is contained under the bed or whatever, I honestly think it's unlikely that the killer managed by chance to leave no footprints whatsoever in the room. Also your point about blood on the handle of the door is an excellent one. Somehow he got out of that charnel-house without leaving any evidence of himself at all. I can't think that was by chance. I believe he had to have either stripped down naked after he killed her and before he got started with his knife. Or brought or used sheets or whatever to protect himself from blood-spatter. It's true that by the time he left, the blood would have congealed. But I still think he'd have gotten some trace on the door-handle unless he was being hyper-careful. And my question here is why would he be so hyper-careful? It's not like fingerprints were used then as clues in criminal cases? Why would he be so careful not to leave bootprints and blood trace evidence? I don't have an answer, but it's an important question.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Chava,

                    Thats a good point, I have never doubted the level of the floor. from the picture we can't say weather or not the floor was completely level or not. This would have to rest on weather the room was built on a concreat slab or on the bare top soil? I am sure if it was the former that it would be level.

                    What if Jack WAS invited into Mary Jane Kellys room that night and DID strip down(to have intercorse or maybe just to bloody sleep with her) and went to bed like that. Waiting till she dozed off, covered her face with the bedsheet and slashed her throat. Then gets up and lights the fire, laiter commencing with the bodily and facial mutilation.

                    Afterwords he dresses and leaves the room.

                    But that still doesn't explain why there was no blood on the door knob? Maybe he wasn't in the nude and was dressed. Maybe he even wore a glove to keep his hand clean. Even if he was being "Hyper-careful", he would have gotten some blood on him no matter how hard he tried to stay clean.

                    Yours truly
                    Washington Irving:

                    "To a homeless man, who has no spot on this wide world which he can truly call his own, there is a momentary feeling of something like independence and territorial consequence, when, after a weary day's travel, he kicks off his boots, thrusts his feet into slippers, and stretches himself before an inn fire. Let the world without go as it may; let kingdoms rise and fall, so long as he has the wherewithal to pay his bills, he is, for the time being, the very monarch of all he surveys. The arm chair in his throne; the poker his sceptre, and the little parlour of some twelve feet square, his undisputed empire. "

                    Stratford-on-Avon

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      What if Jack WAS invited into Mary Jane Kellys room that night and DID strip down(to have intercorse or maybe just to bloody sleep with her) and went to bed like that. Waiting till she dozed off, covered her face with the bedsheet and slashed her throat. Then gets up and lights the fire, laiter commencing with the bodily and facial mutilation.
                      I think that may well be what happened. I assume he always intended to kill her. I can see him stripping down to 'get into bed' and then either throwing the sheet over her or slashing through a sheet that already covers her. But that still doesn't explain why he was being so careful afterwards. No blood trace evidence away from the bed argues a very very careful killer indeed. A killer who knows about modern techniques of forensic science. But those techniques didn't exist then. I'm not suggesting some kind of time traveller! But there has to be a reason for this level of care, especially given that the Ripper had already left pretty good evidence in the Eddowes killing in the shape of the cut piece of apron.

                      Of course, this may not have been the Ripper's work at all...

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Chava,

                        I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be the work of the Ripper. Theres no evience to suggest it wasn't him.

                        He was always careful. I think he left the apron there on purpose. He ment for it to be found. He never left any clues to his route away from his murdered victim except for the apron. He was a very organised killer in that respect.

                        Yours truly
                        Washington Irving:

                        "To a homeless man, who has no spot on this wide world which he can truly call his own, there is a momentary feeling of something like independence and territorial consequence, when, after a weary day's travel, he kicks off his boots, thrusts his feet into slippers, and stretches himself before an inn fire. Let the world without go as it may; let kingdoms rise and fall, so long as he has the wherewithal to pay his bills, he is, for the time being, the very monarch of all he surveys. The arm chair in his throne; the poker his sceptre, and the little parlour of some twelve feet square, his undisputed empire. "

                        Stratford-on-Avon

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          I disagree about the linen cloth. He may have purposely left it there but I don't think he intended to take it when he set out. And I'm not even convinced that he did 'plant' it. We'll never know for sure why he took that piece of cloth. I started a huge thread about it on the Eddowes board. As for the Kelly killing, I am completely on the fence about it being a Ripper kill. I can see good reasons for both points of view. That having been said, whoever killed Kelly went to great lengths to ensure that there were no traces left behind, and absent a time-travelling serial killer with knowledge of dna, footprint and finger print analysis and modern scenes of crime procedure, I'm not sure why he bothered. Unless there was something about his footprints and/or handprints that would serve to identify him.

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Chava,

                            The only reason that the killer of Kelly wasn't Jack is if you assume that killers must kill the EXACT same way each time. Which isn't true. I haven't seen one convicincing arguement against Kellys ripper candidacy.

                            I will check out your Eddowes thread.

                            yours truly
                            Washington Irving:

                            "To a homeless man, who has no spot on this wide world which he can truly call his own, there is a momentary feeling of something like independence and territorial consequence, when, after a weary day's travel, he kicks off his boots, thrusts his feet into slippers, and stretches himself before an inn fire. Let the world without go as it may; let kingdoms rise and fall, so long as he has the wherewithal to pay his bills, he is, for the time being, the very monarch of all he surveys. The arm chair in his throne; the poker his sceptre, and the little parlour of some twelve feet square, his undisputed empire. "

                            Stratford-on-Avon

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Fire first

                              Hi Corey,

                              if they stripped down and decided to sleep together, they must have lit the fire first.

                              Amitiés,
                              David

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