How long was the killer in the room?

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all!

Kat, I agree with you in that sense, that JtR could have picked MJK intentionally. The most likely reason for this; the girls outside were better prepared for him than earlier. Mary Kelly probably thought herself to be safe indoors...

Pontius; in fact, my own estimation has been that 30 minutes. The reason,why the women weren't taken seriously; my impression is, that their statements didn't quite fit with the other ones!

All the best
Jukka

[Pontius2000]

I see where you are coming from but no one did go and see did they! And the reasons why were given largely that it was a common enough thing to hear being called and so they didn't bother to look. And remember it has been a long time since the last Ripper killings.

the killer didn't know if anyone was going to come or not. his murders were a natural progression in viciousness. so it's only understandable just as his killings evolved, his caution levels probably also evolved. he was very nearly caught at the Chapman crime scene and could've been seen at the Stride scene. taking a woman into her private room to kill her on one hand shows that he was being more cautious getting off the street. but at the same time, it was a situation that he had not been in before. and he had to be keenly aware that if anyone came to the door, he was caught. it could've been someone coming to ask for a spoonful of sugar. whatever the reason, he would've been caught. so I personally think it's ludicrous to think that he dallied around for another 2 hours after his victim screamed "murder!".

[Pontius2000]

Pontius, bear in mind; the cuts took some time...

All the best
Jukka

the mutilations to MJK didn't take anywhere close to 2 hours. as Sam Flynn pointed out, it would have taken a minimum of 16 minutes. the only way he took 1 or 2 hours in the room is if he was actually sitting there examining body parts and taking it all in. which would've been at his own peril. no, I believe he was there for no more than 30 minutes.

it also brings into question when the murder actually took place. not many take the women seriously who said that she saw MJK alive and well early that morning. I tend to give her some credence. and if she did in fact see MJK alive, then that would've given the killer an shorter amount of time in the room.

[KatBradshaw]

all the people who think the killer was in the room for 2 hours seem to be basing it on when "Oh murder" was heard and when a man was heard leaving the court.

now, knowing that the walls are very thin and that the court is packed full of inhabitants.....the victim screams "oh murder" and he sticks around for another 2 hours. you believe that???? to me, that would make the Ripper a very very stupid man. and I don't believe he was stupid at all.

therefore, I don't believe MJK screamed "oh murder" and I don't believe he was there for longer than 30 minutes.

I see where you are coming from but no one did go and see did they! And the reasons why were given largely that it was a common enough thing to hear being called and so they didn't bother to look. And remember it has been a long time since the last Ripper killings.

[Ben]

Hi Hunter,

Would it be likely that Mary Kelly would leave her door unlocked while she was at home ?

Given the likely extent of both her drunkenness and apparent preoccupation with her blotchy companion, as reported by Mary Cox, she could easily have neglected to secure her door by taking the lock off the latch before retiring for the night. If any jiggery-pokery involving broken window panes took place at 11:45pm, I doubt very much that Mary Cox would have withheld the detail. It would, after all, have been a rather difficult task if the contemporary photographs are anything to go by.

Best regards,
Ben

[KatBradshaw]

Hi Hunter. Just a couple of points on what you have said if thats ok....

1. You said;

Wow, some vivid imaginations in this thread. the Mary Jane being a part of a plan to get her out of a conspiricy would make a good movie- don't you think ?

I think I am the only person who has mentioned Kelly being chosen and I did stress that I did not mean in a Royal Conspiracy kind of way. All I meant was that the killer may have observed that she had a room and that there was no man living with her at that time. That way he would not be worried about being disturbed and if the hypothesis that he just tried her door and found it open is right then he was sure he wasn't going to find another man in there. I personally don't ascribe to that theory.

2. Also you said;

If it was common for Mary Kelly to gain entry in that way Mary might not mention it. Would it be likely that Mary Kelly would leave her door unlocked while she was at home ?

Now I know I don't live in Victorian East London but I usually leave my door open when I am in. We are always being told that people used to leave their doors open etc. It maybe that as she was in she wasn't worried about someone coming to steal things.

[Robert]

Re the door, it would probably have been Astrakhan (or Blotchy, if you prefer) who actually closed the door - I don't suppose Kelly got out of bed to see him off with a kiss and wave to him from her door. Also, she would have been tired after her drinking.

Re the scream, well, if no one has investigated the scream after a couple of minutes, staying half an hour or two hours won't make much difference - unless the brains of the Court's inhabitants rivalled those of politicians for slowness.

[Hunter]

Hi Hunter,



The door appeared to have been left on the "latch" when Kelly returned home with the blotchy-faced man at 11:45pm, since Mary Cox made no reference to any attempt to gain entry via the broken window. If the lock remained in its latched state after Blotchy left, the killer had only to push the door open.

Best regards,
Ben

Hello Ben,

If it was common for Mary Kelly to gain entry in that way Mary might not mention it. Would it be likely that Mary Kelly would leave her door unlocked while she was at home ? Her upstairs neighbor placed two tables( or maybe chairs- don't remember which) in front of her door when going to bed.

This may belong on another thread but I believe that before we delve into alternate theories we should understand the context of commonality that all of the victims shared. They were all prostitutes on some level. Their vulnerability has been discussed on many occasions before because it is the most plausible reason for their being victims, even if it may not be the only one. They placed themselves in this predicament as surely as a condemed man voluntarily walking to his execution. To me, at least, this explains why the killer (or killers if one is so inclined) was able to vanish and was never caught .

Best Wishes,
Hunter

[j.r-ahde]

Hello hunter!

Well, have you seen "From Hell"?!

Pontius, bear in mind; the cuts took some time...

All the best
Jukka

[Pontius2000]

all the people who think the killer was in the room for 2 hours seem to be basing it on when "Oh murder" was heard and when a man was heard leaving the court.

now, knowing that the walls are very thin and that the court is packed full of inhabitants.....the victim screams "oh murder" and he sticks around for another 2 hours. you believe that???? to me, that would make the Ripper a very very stupid man. and I don't believe he was stupid at all.

therefore, I don't believe MJK screamed "oh murder" and I don't believe he was there for longer than 30 minutes.

[Ben]

Hi Hunter,

Just a note on the forced entry idea. The door was locked from the inside with access to it from the broken window.

The door appeared to have been left on the "latch" when Kelly returned home with the blotchy-faced man at 11:45pm, since Mary Cox made no reference to any attempt to gain entry via the broken window. If the lock remained in its latched state after Blotchy left, the killer had only to push the door open.

Best regards,
Ben

[Hunter]

Hello everyone,

Wow, some vivid imaginations in this thread. the Mary Jane being a part of a plan to get her out of a conspiricy would make a good movie- don't you think ?

Just a note on the forced entry idea. The door was locked from the inside with access to it from the broken window. If she was surprised in her room the killer would have to know this.

In considering a time sequence one may add the time it took her to disrobe and lie down upon the bed- add a little small talk- maybe 5 minutes. She would have gotten down to business fairly soon after entering her room- being a professional. The murderer probably would have gotten to his business soon after that - being his motive.

I believe the idea that this murderer was a sexual serial killer in the same mold as a Bundy is a mistake. These people usually toyed with their victims to gain sexual exitement. JTR ( or whoever he was) killed swifly with the mutilations being more of a mental rage than a sexual outlet- Just an opinion of course.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

[KatBradshaw]

Ok that makes sense! So in that case we are back to thinking he was there for about 30mins.

[Sam Flynn]

If that is true then and we match this up with someone leaving the court at 5.45(ish)

The streets would have started to buzz by then, Kat - remember Annie Chapman's murder? Unlike Hanbury Street, however, Dorset Street was amongst the most densely-populated in the district, and Miller's Court was within easy sight of Commercial Street - one of the busiest thoroughfares in the area. I'd suggest that it would have made eminent sense for the killer to be out of there by 5AM, at the very latest. For my money, he'd already been and gone even by then.

[KatBradshaw]

Hello Kat!

Anyhow, the cry "Murder, oh, murder!" was most probably cried out by MJK!

But it's worth studying the other options as well!

All the best
Jukka

If that is true then and we match this up with someone leaving the court at 5.45(ish) then the killer stayed with her for 1hr 45 mins(ish)