How long was the killer in the room?

[Observer]

Sorry the above is a trifle vague, in essence the door must have been locked at some stage, for they had to use the window to open it.

all the ebst

Observer

[KatBradshaw]

the food in her stomach was only partly digested. again, this should have been completed if she was killed at 2 or 3. food continues to digest after death.

The digestion of food is delayed by both sleep and alcohol.
Trust me as graphic as this may be I have certainly thrown up a pizza bought on the way home to stave off a hangover the next day!! Clearly there are some hangovers even a pizza can't help!

On a serious note though we KNOW Kelly was heard singing at a certain time. We are lead to believe that Hutch saw her at a certain time. We are also told that a person was heard leaving the court (for whatever purpose) at a certain time. This means that we do have fixed points to work from.

This isn't a post about Caroline Maxwell and her testimony but we do have to remember that she was repeatedly given the facts that showed what she saud was wrong. That she stuck to it is either proof that she was telling the truth or was convinced of her own belief so much she didn't break. That does not make her right.

With Kelly's body being so mangled and pulled around the staus of Rigor may not have fitted the normal patern for a more intact body.

[Observer]

Hi Ben

In other words Mary Kelly, and Barnett while he lived there, didn't need a key to enter the room? So why were they using the window to gain entry to the room?

all the best

Observer

[Pontius2000]

Hi Pontius,

Mrs Maxwell has everything and everyone against her.
Phillips, Bond, Diddles, Cox...
Why do you "tend to give her some credence" ?

Amitiés,
David

edit: no doubt I made my point decisive with Diddles.

where do you get that from? Mrs Maxwell has the coroner in her favor. he said that rigor mortis advanced while they were examining MJK in the room. if she had been killed at 2 or 3 in the morning, rigor mortis would've been completed before they got the door open. the food in her stomach was only partly digested. again, this should have been completed if she was killed at 2 or 3. food continues to digest after death. so actually, it's the people who say MJK was killed at 2 or 3am that have everything going against them. I can't safely say that she was killed at 10am. but I think it's pretty safe to assume that she died later than 3am.

[Ben]

Hi Hunter,

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that the spring automatically reset itself once the door was open- in other words the catch couldn't hold it open once released.

The spring only resets itself (i.e. locks) automatically if the lock is unlatched. If a switch is flicked on the lock mechanism itself, the door is then considered "on the latch", which means the lock cannot engage even when the door is closed. It is a convenience more than anything else, desgined to avoid the tedium of the occupant constantly locking and unlocking the door for short journeys to and from the premises. Obviously the killer would have un-latched the door upon entering the dwelling in the "intruder" scenario, which I currently favour.

All the best,
Ben

[Hunter]

Many spring locks can be put on the latch though can't they? Then you can lock it properly as well. Mind you given that the door could be opened through the window makes little sense locking it at all.

Exactly Kat,

That's why I was under the impression that the lock was used to keep the door shut- i.e. broken or missing door knob- instead of security. Could be wrong though. Maybe she figured no one would think about reaching through the window.

As far as a previous suggestion that a drunken Mary might have problems opening the door through the window, she had repeatedly done this enough times to be able to do it automatically- as long as she was conscious enough.


Best Wishes,
Hunter

[KatBradshaw]

Many spring locks can be put on the latch though can't they? Then you can lock it properly as well. Mind you given that the door could be opened through the window makes little sense locking it at all.

[Hunter]

That's quite true, Hunter, but if the spring lock was left on the latch (acheived by flicking a switch on the lock itself) the lock would be prevented from engaging even when the door is closed. This appears to have occured on the night of Kelly's death.

Best regards,
Ben

Hi Ben,

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that the spring automatically reset itself once the door was open- in other words the catch couldn't hold it open once released. At least that was the impression I got from Barnett. The spring was sprung- so to speak. If someone knows that was not the case- I stand corrected.

It was certainly locked when the body was discovered.

Best Wishes,
Hunter


Best Wishes,
Hunter

[Ben]

The door had a spring lock that fastened automatically

That's quite true, Hunter, but if the spring lock was left on the latch (acheived by flicking a switch on the lock itself) the lock would be prevented from engaging even when the door is closed. This appears to have occured on the night of Kelly's death.

Best regards,
Ben

[Hunter]

Lock

From KatI think I am the only person who has mentioned Kelly being chosen and I did stress that I did not mean in a Royal Conspiracy kind of way. All I meant was that the killer may have observed that she had a room and that there was no man living with her at that time. That way he would not be worried about being disturbed and if the hypothesis that he just tried her door and found it open is right then he was sure he wasn't going to find another man in there. I personally don't ascribe to that theory.

I apologize for seeming condescending in my earlier post. My awkward point was meant to propose a closer look at the evidence before theorizing. The Kelly conspiracy post was what mainly caught my eye.

As to the latch, and I am quoting Sugden-'Joe Barnett later told Abberline that the key had been missing for some time. The door had a spring lock that fastened automatically when it was pulled to but the catch could easily be moved back from the outside by reaching through the broken window.'

Best Wishes,
Hunter

[j.r-ahde]

Hello David!

Well, if we can relate JtR to the other serial killers to any extent:

1. He could have found the first murder bad, the second one easier etc.

2. Since he didn't get caught, he thought himself as an unmistakable superhuman!

Yes, extremely bad thoughts, no doubt about it!

All the best
Jukka

[DVV]

People shouldn't forget the Ripper was a real bad man.
Cadosch, even if a bold man, wouldn't have saved Annie.
Schwartz could do nothing for Liz.
Barnett moved out, and Mary died.

Amitiés all

[KatBradshaw]

Hello you all!
Kat, I agree with you in that sense, that JtR could have picked MJK intentionally. The most likely reason for this; the girls outside were better prepared for him than earlier. Mary Kelly probably thought herself to be safe indoors...

Yes that is very true!

[KatBradshaw]

the killer didn't know if anyone was going to come or not. his murders were a natural progression in viciousness. so it's only understandable just as his killings evolved, his caution levels probably also evolved. he was very nearly caught at the Chapman crime scene and could've been seen at the Stride scene. taking a woman into her private room to kill her on one hand shows that he was being more cautious getting off the street. but at the same time, it was a situation that he had not been in before. and he had to be keenly aware that if anyone came to the door, he was caught. it could've been someone coming to ask for a spoonful of sugar. whatever the reason, he would've been caught. so I personally think it's ludicrous to think that he dallied around for another 2 hours after his victim screamed "murder!".

If he was a native of the East End I think he would know that such cries would be ignored!
Surely if other serial killers teach us anything of the evolution of a killer it is that they become less cautious and even reckless which ultimately lead them to be caught.

[DVV]

Hi Pontius,

Mrs Maxwell has everything and everyone against her.
Phillips, Bond, Diddles, Cox...
Why do you "tend to give her some credence" ?

Amitiés,
David

edit: no doubt I made my point decisive with Diddles.