How long was the killer in the room?

[kensei]

But surely that would have Kelly Crying murder when she was already dead and destroyed.
The reference to someone leaving is at 5.45 not 4.00.

No no, I'm thinking the cry of "Murder" was made by someone else passing by who saw something as the Ripper made his exit. Just a theory.

[KatBradshaw]

No no, I'm thinking the cry of "Murder" was made by someone else passing by who saw something as the Ripper made his exit. Just a theory.

Interesting................

[Ben]

I have tended to envision the Ripper, with the fire burning for light and at least a little warmth, stripping down himself at least to being shirtless...I think he was the Astrakan Man

That would have been one heck of a derobing process, Kensei!

The bulky overcoat would have been the first to go, followed by the under-jacket, then the gold chain with fiddly glittering appendages, tie pin, tie, collar etc. The comical tedium of Astrakhan in mid-strip doesn't bear thinking about, espeically as it all had to go on again afterwards! The idea of someone waltzing into the district at that hour blinged up to the gonads and in that attire was implausible enough without having to accept that his apparal and accessories were coming off anyway.

If anyone came through the door unexpectedly, it would not be police

Why wouldn't it have been the police? This was the height of the ripper scare, at a time when wannabe vigilantees adopted a near lynch mob mentality in response to anything vaguely sinister or conspicuous (consider Dr. Holt, Squibby, Pizer and other press reports). In the Astrakhan-the-ripper scenario, he would have known full well that someone had clocked his conspicuous presence at close quarters before following him and his intended victim to his intended murder destination. Could he really have comforted himself that his interested follower would not alert others, including policeman on beat?

For the record, I believe Kelly retired to bed and to sleep around 1:30am, and that her killer entered the dwelling uninvited at around 3:45am.

All the best,
Ben

[Robert]

I don't think he'd have been overly concerned by the risk of being trapped. This was a man who conducted the Chapman job in a small fenced-in yard behind a house crammed with people, with a bloke pottering up and down to the lav a few feet away from him.

Besides, he could always have locked the door.

[KatBradshaw]

For the record, I believe Kelly retired to bed and to sleep around 1:30am, and that her killer entered the dwelling uninvited at around 3:45am.

All the best,
Ben

If this is the case Ben do you think that he was aware of Kelly and her proffession before he tried the door. Would be very risky is Barnett had come to see what was going on afterall.

[Ben]

Hi Kat,

He may well have conducted some prior surveillance of the order adopted by Ted Bundy, Dennis Rader and other serial killers who have targetted indoor locations, thus enabling him to get a good idea of the likelihood of disturbance from friends or family.

Best regards,
Ben

[DVV]

I'll guestimate about 2 hours. This takes into account Pratter hearing the "Oh Murder!" cry at 4 am and Cox hearing someone leave at 5:45.

Hi Barnaby,

I agree that "Oh Murder" must be the the terminus a quo, and the footsteps the terminus ad quem, and on this basis, we can speculate that 2 hours, or 1 hour 45, is a maximum, while half an hour (thanks to Sam's post) must be the minimum.
But we don't know for sure that the footsteps were Jack's.

Amitiés,
David

[DVV]

If this is the case Ben do you think that he was aware of Kelly and her proffession before he tried the door. Would be very risky is Barnett had come to see what was going on afterall.

H Kate,

hmmm...it would have been risky for Barnett, imo...

Amitiés,
David

[kensei]

Thank you Robert, excellent parallel with the Chapman murder. The Ripper was not averse to doing his work with people only yards away as long as there were walls in between.

And Ben, I don't know where you live but I am in the mid-U.S. where we are in the midst of a bitterly cold winter and I am regularly having to bundle up in many layers of clothes as I go about my business. Peeling them on and off becomes second nature pretty quickly and doesn't take more than a minute or two. And as for Hutch having seen him with Kelly out in the street, that encounter happened quickly. He would have passed many people who eyed him in the street, and according to Hutch's account the Astrakan Man didn't come into view until after Hutch's exchange with Kelly and Hutch didn't say anything when they passed him. If Astrakan didn't notice Hutch following them, Hutch would have seemed nothing more than one more random street person.

[KatBradshaw]

H Kate,

hmmm...it would have been risky for Barnett, imo...

Amitiés,
David

Sorry David, I wasn't very clear what I meant there.
What I meant was that the killer must have known that she was staying in the room alone if he entered in the way that Ben is suggesting. If he had tried the door and a man was in there he may have had a lot of explaining to do

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
How long was the killer in room 13 ?.
I would say less then forty minutes.
I am trying to make sense of all the known bits and bobs.
Kelly taking home Blotchy,
Two women and one man seen in Dorset street, one of the women[ better dressed] being enticed to go somewhere,
A couple entering millers court laughing at the reward poster,
The Astracan sighting by Hutchinson,
The remarks heard by Hutchinson,
Maurice Lewis observations,
Mrs Maxwells observations,
So based on the above, a scenerio is possible.
Mary Jane kelly was involved in these crimes, she was not responsible for the actual murders, but assisted,she however became paranoid as the series progressed, and was terified that she would be found out, because of this her murderous companion, had an idea that someone similar like kelly could be killed in her place, and everyone would believe it was her, and obviously dead people cannot be accused, or detected.
So on the night in question, kelly goes out as the norm, and puts herself about , and is seen entering the court with Blotchy, the whitechapel killer however has picked up a woman of similar shape to kelly, and meets kelly outside Ringers at a arranged time, and the woman finally is enticed to spend the night in room 13.
The man suggests that he would go and fetch some food[ fish and chips] leaving the two women in the room, having gone some time, kelly says 'I will go and see where he is'.
The meeting then occurs as seen by Hutchinson, both Astracan and Mjk, overplay the foreplay , as this was planned for someone to see Mary , with a suspicious man.
They then proceed to the court, followed by a suspicious Hutch.
Meanwhile the other woman eats some fish and chips, and the three of them bed down, one of them, proberly Astracan using a mattress[ found on the table[ bolster].
Around 4am Kelly lets out a prearranged yell 'Oh Murder' explaining to the woman next to her'Its a nightmare'.
Around 730 am . proberly awoken by her neighbours knock [to borrow her shawl] the plan is put into operation, the fire is lit, kelly leaves the room to fetch milk, and returns shortly after, she then leaves again, this time is spoken to by Maxwell, it is around then that the woman is attacked in the room, and butchered beyond identification.
Kelly remains at the court entrance to deter anyone from going anyhere near her room, whilst this is happening.
The killer leaves the room and closes the door, and is the man seen by Maxwell talking to Mary at 845am at the corner of Dorset Street.
So we have Kelly seen with at least two suspicious men that evening, clearly giving the appearance that she was soliciting, we have oral history, that kelly rented her room out that evening, we have a woman being inticed to follow a well dressed man , whilst a woman stood close by, we have the sighting of kelly by two witnessed, and we have an explanation why the killer in room 13 was not worried about being disturbed.
I Appreciate simply speculation, and many questions have to be answered, however this case is not straightforward, so mayby the truth will have a sting in the tail.
Regards Richard.

[Ben]

Hi Kensei,

It's currently snowing here in the south-east of England, and it looks as though we're in for a three month reminder of the benefits of wrapping up in cold weather! It's not the layers that trouble me, so much as the unnecessary flashy accessories that could only have been a hinderance to the derobing process, although losing a few layers wasn't quite today's simple expedient of pulling off a few polo necks and a fleece. There were pesky buttons to contend with, for staters.

If Astrakan didn't notice Hutch following them

I'm afraid I find that impossible to accept. For starters, the Astrakhan man would have known full well that he'd be attracting curiosity from every person he passed on the street (when he could easily have remained conspicious as he had done at previous murders), but once he had located his victim and knew for certain that someone had "stooped down" to look him in the face, don't you think he'd be a tiny bit concerned that the curious "stooper" might have taken that curiosity a little bit further?

When taken in conjuction with the strong indications that the account in question was discredited, I'm personally encourage a reassessment of the Astrakhan-as-ripper premise.

Best regards,
Ben

[DVV]

What I meant was that the killer must have known that she was staying in the room alone

That's possible.
Another possibility is that Kelly knew the guy.
"Mary, the VH is closed...I'm cold..."
"Ok Joe, come in..."

Amitiés,
David

[kensei]

You are Jack the Ripper. You haven't killed for over five weeks and you're getting pretty keyed up. You are out trolling for victims on Nov. 9th and you meet someone who gets you more riled up than you have been in a very long time who tells you she has a private room available just a few minutes' walk away. Are you really going to call it off because you happen to pass by some random guy in the street who crouches down and gives you a serious and intense look in the face? The East End was full of random characters who did all sorts of curious things. Indeed, it still is.

[The Good Michael]

You are Jack the Ripper.

No, you are. No backs!

Mike