Did Fleming meet her in a brothel?

[KatBradshaw]

I am sorry if this is a question which has been done to death but have just seen this and it made me think;
At the inquest in to Mary Kelly's death the following interchange took place between Barnett and the Coroner.
[Coroner] Was Morganstone the last man she lived with ? - I cannot answer that question, but she described a man named Joseph Fleming, who came to Pennington-street, a bad house, where she stayed. I don't know when this was. She was very fond of him. He was a mason's plasterer, and lodged in the Bethnal-green-road.
Does this mean that Fleming started out as a client?

[DVV]

Possibly, Kate, just as Barnett.

David, glad to follow.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Kat!

Obviously so!

I find it possible too, that the "fondness" for Fleming might indicate, that: MJK didn't partically like being a prostitute, already at that time!

All the best
Jukka

[DVV]

Hi Jukka,

you're right. She was once about to marry Fleming, and agreed to live with Barnett within 24 hours.

I'd like to know how and why the first chapter of her love story with Fleming did end...
Was it Fleming who left her ? Or was it her ?
She was still "very fond" of him while living in Miller's Court, but on the other hand, Fleming wilfully moved in Whitechapel at the end of summer 18888, and gave her money at times... So who knows ?

What we know is that poor Barnett wanted her to live a better life (though he was unable to earn sufficient money), and was aware of her "fondness" for the other Joe.

That one, in turn, ill-used her because of Barnett, not prostitution apparently.
But she still loved him much more than Barnett.

Amitiés,
David

[Sam Flynn]

Possibly, Kate, just as Barnett.

But Barnett met her on the street, which could be taken to mean that she was soliciting, I suppose, but is by no means axiomatic. I suspect that back then - as today - most young prostitutes' clients would have been rather older than them, in the main. Barnett, as a young man, might just have seen a pretty young woman and taken a shine to her - and there's no reason to suppose that Flemming, also a young man at the time, wouldn't have done similarly.

Indeed, I wonder whether the average younger slum-dweller would have had much need, still less the means, to resort to paying prostitutes - when "courting" them didn't carry a fixed charge, and "settling down" stood a good chance of leading both parties to stability and respectability.

From available testimony, it seems that Kelly and Flemming had clearly established a close bond, to the extent where the possibility of their getting wed was talked about. When that didn't transpire, Kelly embarked on two other relationships with Morganstone and Barnett, of which the latter, if not the former, seems to have been serious enough while it lasted.

So that's two, possibly three, liaisons of reasonable length in the space of some four or five years. Even if Kelly periodically worked the streets during this period, the relationships themselves hardly betoken promiscuity - indeed, it sounds rather like normal youthful love.

[DVV]

Ok, not axiomatic, Sam, but East Enders such as Barnett or Fleming, even if they saw first a "pretty young woman", understood quickly, I guess, what "kind of woman" she was. Every social / cultural class has its own codes.
She was a casual/regular prostitute and at the same time, just a girl.

Amitiés,
David

ps: out of curiosity, why Flemming ? Census and certificates spell it "Fleming", don't they...?

[KatBradshaw]

But Barnett met her on the street,.

I thought she met him at Cooley's Lodging house

[DVV]

She met Barnett in Commercial Street, and once they decided to live together, she moved out of Cooley's L H and they took lodgings in George Street.

Amitiés,
David

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks, Dave, for confirming that.

PS, it was Cooney's - if that's not politically incorrect these days

[KatBradshaw]

Thanks, Dave, for confirming that.

PS, it was Cooney's - if that's not politically incorrect these days

ooops, you're right. Mea Culpa.