Teeth

[Maggyann]

I remember reading somewhere but can't find it now, that MJK had either a false tooth or a 'strange' tooth. I wondered if anyone knows where this was mentioned and whether there was any reference to it anywhere in identifying her body.

I have noticed that all the victims had teeth missing but I suppose back then that would be the norm.

[Phil Carter]

Maggyan,

I believe there was also talk by one witness she had a "speech impediment", which alerted me to the fact that Mary Kelly wasn't only known and recognised by her appearance and looks, but what SOUND she made. Think of it in a pub.. voices, somewhere in the room you hear THAT sound.. that way of talking. You know who it is before you even turn around to look.

As regards the strange tooth... I always think of the picture of Jill the Ripper, Mrs Mary Pearcey... strange. Marys both.

best wishes and seasonal greetings

Phil

[Mike Covell]

The Tooth is out there!

I thought it was Stride who had something wrong with her mouth.

[DVV]

Yes Mike,
the tooth is that Stride was called "Mother Gum".
As to the speech impediment, that's the good Joe, not Mary.

Amitiés all
David

[Mike Covell]

Was the "Mother Gum" natural, or acci-dental? I recall a case of a lady living on the outskirts of Hull being kicked by a mule and having a deformity of the lower lip. This was in the early 1800's.

[DVV]

Apparently, "all the teeth on the left lower jaw were absent."
And then there is the lips problem, as it seems.

Amitiés
David

[Sam Flynn]

As to the speech impediment, that's the good Joe, not Mary.

Actually, Dave, Mary Kelly was indeed said to have spoken "with a kind of impediment" - albeit this account is by Mrs Maxwell, who also had Kelly down as a fat, dark-haired midget.

Dodgy as Maxwell's recall might be in respect of Kelly, it at least has the merit of being contemporary testimony, which is more than can be said apropos Barnett's supposed impediment. The first we hear of this is in Bruce Paley's book, The Simple Truth, where he speculates that Barnett suffered from "echolalia", based on a newspaper report that Barnett repeated the last words of the questions he was asked at Kelly's inquest.

[DVV]

Many thanks, Sam,
I've always baulked at this "echolalia" topos. So it comes from Paley...
But was there anything about Barnett being a stammerer? We've heard this many times, right?

Amitiés,
David

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all!

First of all, if MJK had had any false teeth, surely the coroner's report would mention the thing.

Mrs. Maxwell did obviously make a mistake with Mary Kelly, but probably there were other Mary Kellies too out there...

What it comes to the speech impediment, it's quite possible, that her accent gave the impression.

For example; if Peter Birchwood is on the right track with his research, I am shooah, that a Bostonian undertone would sound strange in an average Cockney's ears.

Yes, Sam, and Welsh too!

All the best
Jukka

[lynn cates]

welease Bwian

Hello JR. I wonder how "theveral thaditious Thaducees" would thound--I mean sound?

The best.
LC

[j.r-ahde]

Hello lyn!

Well, I hope, that the Cumry people here can answel that!

All the best
Jukka

[Joshua Rogan]

Apropos of nothing, I once compiled a short list of any mentions of the teeth of the victims, possibly inspired by the Morning Advertiser 10th Sept mention that Annie Chapman had;

"two of her front teeth missing, as had Mary Ann Nichols"

However, in the Times 14th Sept, Dr Phillips is reported as describing Chapman's teeth as "perfect, as far as the first molar, top and bottom, and very fine teeth they were"

Polly Nichols actually had 5 teeth missing, according to Dr Llewellyn at her inquest. Although he doesn't specify their position, her father Edward Walker identified her body partly by "some of the front teeth being missing"

Liz Stride had her mouth examined by Phillips, and he initially found that "all the teeth on the left lower jaw were missing". On checking again because of reports of damage to the roof of her mouth he "could not find any injury to or absence of anything from the mouth".

DI Reid, however, says "she had lost her upper teeth in front", so one of them (at least) must be mistaken.

Catherine Eddowes, according to one report (for which I forgot to note the source) apparently had 16 teeth missing!

And Mary Jane Kelly, according, at least, to the Thanet Advertiser 17th Nov had "two false teeth in her upper jaw"

[Robert]

I wonder if there's some ambiguity to the phrase 'teeth missing'? One can well imagine these women 'losing' teeth as a result of being punched, especially by a man. But that might not knock the whole tooth out - the root might still be there, as a stump. Actual absence of a whole tooth might suggest dental work, which would be a bit pricey for these women.

I could imagine teeth getting chipped and then gradually crumbling away if something hard was bitten on.

[Yabs]

I wonder if there's some ambiguity to the phrase 'teeth missing'? One can well imagine these women 'losing' teeth as a result of being punched, especially by a man. But that might not knock the whole tooth out - the root might still be there, as a stump. Actual absence of a whole tooth might suggest dental work, which would be a bit pricey for these women.

I could imagine teeth getting chipped and then gradually crumbling away if something hard was bitten on.

If they had years of poor dental hygiene it is more likely they suffered from severe gum disease which causes teeth to become loose as the root slowly detaches itself from the rotting connective tissue.
They would then start to fall out.

[Sam Flynn]

Indeed so, Yabs. Poor diet would also have been an exacerbating factor.