Did Mary know her attacker?

[paul emmett]

Where does the assertion come from that nobody is singing for 75 minutes or longer? Any proof to back that up?

Tron, I quote from your earlier message to suggest where the misunderstanding comes from that you refer to in your next post.

If you don't want "JTR's mind," say "the killer's mind."

When I said "risky" in my last post, I was agreeing with you--yes it would be, as you said, risky. But we are not sure what the mind involved felt about risk.

None of this matters much since we just disagree about "mystery." I feel 85 minutes of singing warrents explanation; you don't. Do you think Blotchy killed MJK?

I also feel that The Ripper and the Royals has, as you suggest, been explained away. But on the other hand, I feel that Maxwell and the folks that saw MJK Friday morning present a mystery that still needs explanation.

What's the longest time you have ever sung for?

[Tron]

Please, Tron, don't worry: you are, most assuredly, bursting no bubbles. As far as the 75 minutes go, Cox met MJK and Blotchy at the Court at 11:45, when Kelly said, "I'm going to have a song."(Strange phrasing itself, no?) Then Cox went to her room, from where she heard "her" singing "A Violet I plucked From My Mother's Grave When a Boy" "shortly afterwards." Cox left at 12:00 and there was still singing; she came back at 1:00 and there was still singing. Voila: 75--at least, because who knows how long it went on. Oh wait, I just checked. Cox then warmed her hands and went out again and there was STILL singing. 85--at least.

I think you misunderstood me. You claimed nobody sings for 75 minutes or longer. In your own words: "...NOONE sings for 75 minutes about anything, let alone dead mothers".

Where is your proof to make such a ridiculous statement? Like I said, she had no TV and was poor, there certainly were limitations on what she could do to entertain herself or others.

How well could Cox know MJK's voice? She would just hear a high voice and figure it's MJK. Is it risky? Yep, but ,hell, the whole thing is risky, and how can we tell how JTR's mind works here?

It is not risky but conjecture based on no factual information. It would be likely that somebody would have noticed a difference since she was singing regularly.
While it does not really belong here, I feel there is not enough proof she is actually a Ripper victim so the Ripper's mind does not concern me.

Still, I don't think it's Blotchy, but I do think it's an interesting point--quite some ways from "another red herring." AND I think that Blotchy or no, Kelly's singing calls out for an explanation, at least once we realize it's so extensive.
It's much easier to insist what is not, than to figure out what is.

What kind of explanation do you want? She liked to sing and one night she was singing and murdered some time (we don't know) afterwards. So where is the mystery?

By the by, what are those other red herrings you referred to? I'm just curious to see where this fits in with your theories.

Anything related to outrageous claims about her being part of a royal conspiracy to her being alive or whatever else creative minds come up with that cannot be supported by a single fact.

[paul emmett]

think it is safe to say the killer singing while butchering his victim is going to end up another red herring to be discussed endlessly without any true merit...


Where does the assertion come from that nobody is singing for 75 minutes or longer? Any proof to back that up?


Sorry if I am bursting bubbles...

Please, Tron, don't worry: you are, most assuredly, bursting no bubbles. As far as the 75 minutes go, Cox met MJK and Blotchy at the Court at 11:45, when Kelly said, "I'm going to have a song."(Strange phrasing itself, no?) Then Cox went to her room, from where she heard "her" singing "A Violet I plucked From My Mother's Grave When a Boy" "shortly afterwards." Cox left at 12:00 and there was still singing; she came back at 1:00 and there was still singing. Voila: 75--at least, because who knows how long it went on. Oh wait, I just checked. Cox then warmed her hands and went out again and there was STILL singing. 85--at least.

Now do I think that Blotchy was singing? Probably not. For some of the reasons you raised among your own red herrings like perfect pitch and good voice. How well could Cox know MJK's voice? She would just hear a high voice and figure it's MJK. Is it risky? Yep, but ,hell, the whole thing is risky, and how can we tell how JTR's mind works here?

Still, I don't think it's Blotchy, but I do think it's an interesting point--quite some ways from "another red herring." AND I think that Blotchy or no, Kelly's singing calls out for an explanation, at least once we realize it's so extensive.
It's much easier to insist what is not, than to figure out what is.

By the by, what are those other red herrings you referred to? I'm just curious to see where this fits in with your theories.

plang, you don't have to worry either: this has zippo to do with Todd. It just spoke to something I'd wondered about for a long time.

[plang]

For heavens sake, now singing comes into the equation, gee, I wonder if that has anything to do with 'The Demon Barber, Sweeny Todd' ?

Plang

[Tron]

How come nobody would have noticed? Apparently she liked to sing so I guess another high voice would have sounded differently. Nothing about the singing aroused any suspicion so I think it is safe to say the killer singing while butchering his victim is going to end up another red herring to be discussed endlessly without any true merit...

I mean...

Wouldn't it be risky to sing and possibly attract somebody?
Isn't it unlikely that the perpetrator can hold his or her pitch perfectly while at the same time performing physical labor?
What are the chances that the killer is also such a good singer?
How likely is a killer going to be able to match his or her voice to that of the victim?
When would he or she have practiced considering the short time Barnett left?
How do we have any contradiction if Mary was known to enjoy singing, be it while intoxicated or otherwise (it's not like she could watch TV or discuss stuff online)?
Where does the assertion come from that nobody is singing for 75 minutes or longer? Any proof to back that up?


Sorry if I am bursting bubbles...

[paul emmett]

He[Blotchy] may not have spoke in a very high register, but he could have been singing in a very high register.
I was not uncommon for men to sing like that, I know it sounds funny, but believe me it is true.

Having always felt that the singing is one of the most perplexing pieces in the MJK killing puzzle, I was struck by this assertion. For me, NOONE sings for 75 minutes about anything, let alone dead mothers, unless they have motivation beyond drink. Indeed, I said on another thread, as we tried to figure out why MJK would be singing for so long, that if Cox had said Blotchy was singing, then I would imagine he was covering up sounds, post-mortem sounds I would surmise. I just always thought Cox had identified the continual crooner correctly.

[Tron]

If Mary Kelly is on right hand side of the bed, facing the wall, when she is attacked...which is possible by medical opinion, then it might indicate that she was sleeping with someone, them being on the left hand side of the bed.

Ever been with a picky woman hogging "her" side of the bed? I think it is possible that it was simply colder by the door so she preferred sleeping away from the door (for whatever reason, I am sure Barnett would know...lol). It may be possible she was still allowing some of the women sleep in her room and therefore allowed them to get into the bed easily this way.

[Sam Flynn]

I think Sam you doth protesteth too much.

Mike - I'm not. I'm simply pointing out that the position in which Mary was found on the bed can't possibly provide any indication of whether she knew her attacker or not. If you dispute that, then it ain't me who is protesting too much, I can assure you

[NOV9]

So the theory then is this: The murderer knew her very well else she wouldn't be inviting him back to the room. He had one last schtupp, and then cut her throat and mutilated her. The whole time, she was oblivious to any hostility the man might have had, no doubt because she trusted and loved him and was intoxicated (take your pick). Why not add that he spoke in a very high register and it was he who was singing 'Violet from Mother's Grave' even as he was stoking the fire with laundry that Kelly had just washed (because she wasn't really a whore, but a laundress), and it was he that was seen wearing Kelly's clothes later on that morning because he couldn't bear that he had killed her, and was determined to have her live on, through him?

I'll bite.

Mike

You said “The whole time, she was oblivious to any hostility the man might have had, no doubt because she trusted and loved him”

And he in his sick mind also loved her, which is why he killed Eddowes instead of her, this sort of thing does happen.

You said, “Why not add that he spoke in a very high register and it was he who was singing”

He may not have spoke in a very high register, but he could have been singing in a very high register.
I was not uncommon for men to sing like that, I know it sounds funny, but believe me it is true.

Now the rest of your sentence is weird.

[The Good Michael]

If Mary Kelly is on right hand side of the bed, facing the wall, when she is attacked...which is possible by medical opinion, then it might indicate that she was sleeping with someone, them being on the left hand side of the bed.

So the theory then is this: The murderer knew her very well else she wouldn't be inviting him back to the room. He had one last schtupp, and then cut her throat and mutilated her. The whole time, she was oblivious to any hostility the man might have had, no doubt because she trusted and loved him and was intoxicated (take your pick). Why not add that he spoke in a very high register and it was he who was singing 'Violet from Mother's Grave' even as he was stoking the fire with laundry that Kelly had just washed (because she wasn't really a whore, but a laundress), and it was he that was seen wearing Kelly's clothes later on that morning because he couldn't bear that he had killed her, and was determined to have her live on, through him?

I'll bite.

Mike

Was she supposed to sleep on top of him? Well, perhaps for an additional fee...

Seriously, her orientation on the bed can't have any relevance in terms of whether she knew her attacker or not.

You are intent on fighting me on every inch of this murder scene aren't you...and so you should be, its a very important one out of the C5 I think, in that it is one of two that may have very reasonable explanations, rather than being just a JTR random killing.

If Mary Kelly is on right hand side of the bed, facing the wall, when she is attacked...which is possible by medical opinion, then it might indicate that she was sleeping with someone, them being on the left hand side of the bed.

Sam...Gareth...my friend......First you want me to believe Mary goes out after midnight...without offering any accredited witness testimony or any evidence...then you want me to believe Mary brings men in to her room now that Barnett has left...again, without any evidence to support that statement,... and now you want me to accept that a sleepover would be the usual treatment for someone she didnt know well?

I think Sam you doth protesteth too much.

My best as always Sam.

[Sam Flynn]

I ask this because it would be odd to sleep with her back turned to a stranger or client, if that is what she was doing.

Was she supposed to sleep on top of him? Well, perhaps for an additional fee...

Seriously, her orientation on the bed can't have any relevance in terms of whether she knew her attacker or not.

Sam, you know how easy it is to try and find support for a point thread related somewhere other than on the straight and narrow path...

Point taken though. Heres the next comment to get tomatoes thrown at me for.....

Is Marys position at the commencement of her attack indicative of a sleeping position, one that would allow for another to be on the bed to her left? She is supposedly first attacked while on the right side of the bed, near the partition wall. I ask this because it would be odd to sleep with her back turned to a stranger or client, if that is what she was doing. And the only reason I can think of her being with company, and on the right upper side of the bed, is because she was sharing that space.

Im trying hard to stay out of trouble here..in case you couldn't tell.

Best regards Sam, all.

[Sam Flynn]

But... did Mary know her attacker?

I saw fewer tangents in all the years I studied geometry at school.

Actually I just checked. Chapman was boozed-up as well but not totally pie-eyed. Stride is the only one who may have been sober or near to sober on the night she died. Although she was known to drink, and she did have 6d that she'd earned cleaning that day so could have afforded a couple of drinks.

Or she could have paid for her bed with 4 of the 6d she earned that day before going out...leaving her free to drink any money earned away. Yet she dies sober, dressed in her evening wear, without having secured a bed for herself, despite having the funds to do so. And she does have an unexplained flower on her breast later that night...did she buy it for herself?

Almost like she had other plans for her sleeping arrangements that night..or was open to suggestions.

My best regards.