Did Mary know her attacker?

[The Good Michael]

Hi,Good Michael.
You gotta keep up with the posts. Of course, you brought it up as a joke, but Nov9 turned it into, alas, a serious issue--which, as they say in NO COUNTRY FOR OLD MEN, it is.

I kept up with the posts. The singing was a joke, and it still is. It doesn't bolster an argument. Drunks sing all the time, regardless of an audience. I would share many stories if it wasn't such an obvious concept.

Mike

[plang]

Good one Paul. Sorry to be such a pang in the arse. I'll go now.

Plang

[paul emmett]

Hi, Sam.

I think singing does fit in here, in the sense that the more she sings, the more comfortable she seems with Blotchy(or whoever) and the more likely it is she knows him. But I'm OK with dropping it. And clearly from the enthusiastic response it got, it's best not to go to another thread. That said, one last answer to your is it continual question. I think that Cox's use of "still" two times suggests that at least for certian, significant, times it is.

Hi, Glenn.

Clearly you are right that mistakes can be made, and yours is an interesting example of that. Maxwell could have been wrong. But that doesn't mean she was wrong.

Hi, pang.

You gotta keep up with the posts. I answered your question back a few pages.

Hi,Good Michael.

You gotta keep up with the posts. Of course, you brought it up as a joke, but Nov9 turned it into, alas, a serious issue--which, as they say in NO COUNTRY FOR OLD MEN, it is.

[The Good Michael]

Excuse me, I brought up the idea of Kelly's murderer singing "Violet from Mother's Grave" as a joke; as a silly concept to compare with other silly speculations. To make anything out of that, such as duration of unending singing is to make the absurd more absurd. Divest yourself of those notions.

Mike

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

As far as Maxwell is concerned, I'd say it's dangerous to put too much stake on her testimony.
Yes, she was sure indeed of whom she talked to and when, but witnesses are in fact often mistaken even when under the most extreme circumstances. Examples of this are numerous.

We had one murder case here in Sweden, which adressed the very same problem and where a witness had seen the victim several hours after she was supposed to be dead. The witness was very sure about it and was prepared to swear upon it in court - as far as the time and date is concerned, he also made associations to other events that day which would almost make it impossible for him to get it wrong (we can compare with Maxwell here and the fact that the day in question would have been the day of Lord Mayor's show).
However, it later turned out that the witness WAS mistaken after all, in spite of the fact that he had been absolutely certain of that he was right.

All the best

[plang]

Yes, in reallity, they were all singing as things rolled along. Nothing but another bloody musical. Saw 'Sweeny Todd' recently, did you?

Plang (guitar)

[paul emmett]

Paul,

Supe, Hi. Isn't that the great thing about the Casebook: we all have different notions of evidence

Um, I'm not sure "great" is the word I would use there.

Don.

Don.
Well, sure, we'd all like the world to see the world as we do, but I have noticed that you are willing to share and listen with your friends.

Paul

[Supe]

Paul,

Supe, Hi. Isn't that the great thing about the Casebook: we all have different notions of evidence

Um, I'm not sure "great" is the word I would use there.

Don.

[paul emmett]

It would warrant an explanation if this was a singular occurrence while in fact we have every reason to believe it is not. What alternative did she have to pass the time.

Tron,we're getting there. The only evidence we have that it was not a singular occurence is that one of those women--Cox again?--said that MJK liked to sing. Clearly there is no way that this can imply that she sang the nights away. Do you then agree that it warrants an explanation--whatever that explanation be? As far as what else there was to do back then, there are still folks here who feel that Blotchy was a trick.

Ichabod, Hi. Your logic seems sound. A thick carroty moustache would indeed stand out. Is that why it seems so phony?

Supe, Hi. Isn't that the great thing about the Casebook: we all have different notions of evidence, and we are all able to share our "evidence" with our friends?

[IchabodCrane]

No more than five minutes before the murder of Catherine Eddowes Joseph Lawende saw a man whose description does not match the one of the blotchy faced man seen by Ms Cox. Lawende is the only person who ever got a good look at the killer, although he claimed at the inquest that he probably would not be able to recognize the man. Still he was the police's best witness, and was used to clear Thomas Cutbush years later.

So if Blotchy was indeed the culprit in the Mary Jane Kelly case, he was still not Jack the Ripper. This we have to take as fact.

[Supe]

Sam,

Kelly could have been singing to a friend or a stranger - or both, if she'd had another visitor after Blotchy

Ah, but you forget the rules of "evidence" around here. No one saw Kelly leave her room after she entered with Blotchy, and thus she didn't go out again that night. No one saw a friend or stranger enter after Blotchy so clearly none did.

Of course, strict adherence to that rule would mean that by all that is right and holy, Blotchy should have been sitting there by Kelly's body when McCarthy prised the door open the next afternoon. That he was wasn't there must mean he left unnoticed. Gee, you don't suppose, then, that Kelly might have gone out again that night unnoticed, do you?

Don.

[Tron]

None of this matters much since we just disagree about "mystery." I feel 85 minutes of singing warrents explanation; you don't. Do you think Blotchy killed MJK?

It would warrant an explanation if this was a singular occurrence while in fact we have every reason to believe it is not. What alternative did she have to pass the time?

I also feel that The Ripper and the Royals has, as you suggest, been explained away. But on the other hand, I feel that Maxwell and the folks that saw MJK Friday morning present a mystery that still needs explanation.

I agree with you here. It seems it is possible that Mrs Maxwell saw her in the morning, at least there is no real evidence to prove otherwise. Unfortunately, there is nothing more to go on so unless somebody comes up with a definite time of death, it is simply speculation. If not that, maybe when and where she ate.

What's the longest time you have ever sung for?

I would sing for you but I doubt it would last more than 30 seconds before you found the duct tape...

[Sam Flynn]

But, Paul, it doesn't have to be "non-stop" singing, does it?

If there is any significance in Kelly's singing, might I suggest you open another thread? Given that Kelly could have been singing to a friend or a stranger - or both, if she'd had another visitor after Blotchy - it has little relevance to the subject of this one.

[paul emmett]

Chaps - nobody's suggesting that Kelly sung for the duration, are they? She may have sung a few songs in the hour or so she spent with Blotchy (assuming that it was Blotchy in there with her all that time), but I don't think we need assume that she was trying to break some kind of record

Hi, Sam.

Cox is pretty insistent. She says that she heard singing when she came in at 11:45, and then when she went out 15 minutes later, MJK is "still singing." She comes home at 1:00, and "she is singing then," too. She warms her hands--at least the same 15 minutes--and goes out again, and Kelly is "still singing." So it's more than "a few songs."

Cox herself accounts for half an hour. Then, there's the "coincidence" that Kelly is singing at 12 AND 1, so we don't know how much of the interim is song time, PLUS the fact that we don't know how much beyond 1:00 she goes on! That's why I say there needs to be an explanation somewhere.

[Sam Flynn]

Chaps - nobody's suggesting that Kelly sung for the duration, are they? She may have sung a few songs in the hour or so she spent with Blotchy (assuming that it was Blotchy in there with her all that time), but I don't think we need assume that she was trying to break some kind of record