Open or Closed-Probabilities

[c.d.]

Hi Issack,

Welcome to the boards. Joseph Barnett (who had previously lived with Mary) identified the body in the room as that of Mary Kelly. In the very unlikely event that his identification was somehow wrong and that Mary had fled back to Ireland as you suggest, she did so with no clothes, no luggage and no money. Not a very likely scenario.

c.d.

[Issack]

According to the information I have read, the doctors who carried out the post-mortem and studied the room were of the opinion that the body on the bed was murdered on the bed.
I assume therefore that this means that there was no trail of blood from the door to the bed. This means (in my opinion) there are these possibilities.

1. The cry of ‘Oh Murder’ came from the victim who was lying on the bed and was awoken by JTR and silenced immediately after she cried out. Hence no further sounds of a struggle or person being dragged back into the room and thrown on the bed.
2. The girl was murdered on the bed, but remained silent (Asleep possibly) . Somebody returning to the room (after the event) who used or shared the lodging opened the door and saw the body on the bed, cried out ‘Oh Murder’ from the door and ran off
3. The cry was totally unrelated to the murder.

If witnesses only head the ‘cry’ but not any scuffle or struggle than I believe that these are the most likely scenarios.

As an aside:-

Whilst I believe the murderer was JTR, does anybody know if the body was positively identified by the police? Or was it a general assumption that 1. people knew that MJK lived there, and 2. MJK did not come forward, so hence everybody assumed that the victim was MJK

[Issack]

Hi C.D
Thanks for the info regarding Barnett. Your point regarding the clothes/money is noted
Was Barnet certain that the clothes in the room 'neatly folded as if for bed' belonged to MJK , thus if she was the one discovering the body and fled, I would assume she was wearing clothes. I take your point regarding the money

[perrymason]

Hi all,

Just a point for Issac....we need to remember that no noise was heard following the cry of "oh-murder", so that effectively rules out that cry signaling her attack. 2 women were listening at that moment, both were awake, and 1 was in the same dwelling and one in a room opposite her front door.

3 women claimed to hear the cry in the press, I cant recall the name of the third, but there was apparently a statement made to that effect.

Has anyone wondered why the phrase "oh-murder" appears in that format in the reportings of the Inquest?

My guess is that it was typed that way, with a hyphen, as a way of indicating the phrase drops in volume and tone on the second word. "Oh-murder".....

Thats why I believe it was probably an exclamation of disappointment or annoyance....which would be understandable if she had been woken to answer the door. She was hammered at 11:45, and sang off and on for over an hour...when the room goes dark and silent I think we have sleep commencing.

Best regards all

[Sam Flynn]

Whilst I believe the murderer was JTR, does anybody know if the body was positively identified by the police?

She was formally identified by her boyfriend - as is on record at the inquest - and other people who knew her viewed the body as well, Issack. Furthermore, she was seen entering her room with a man only a few hours before her death, and held a brief conversation with a neighbour as she did so. Those who entertain the quaint possibility that a "substitute" died on that bed - and a tiny, conspiracy-minded minority do - really ought to take all those factors into account.

[Celesta]

Hello Issack, Welcome to the site. I'm sorry I forgot to welcome you this morning. I was in a rush. I hope you enjoy your time here.

[kensei]

The more I think about it, doesn't it seem really odd that Prater- directly above the murder site and thus only a few yards away- would have heard someone cry out but NOT heard any of the sounds of a body being cut apart? Did she drift off again and was just a very deep sleeper, and Mr. Diddles just didn't happen to crawl on her again?

It makes me consider just for a moment (though I don't really believe it) the theory that Mary was really killed later in the morning, in daylight, presumably when Prater wasn't present to hear anything. But it seems practically unbelievable that anyone would have been bold enough to perpetrate that brutal a killing and take that much time to cut up the body in daylight hours with daily hustle & bustle going on right outside the door. Bowyer's knock could have come at any time once the sun came up.

[FrankO]

The more I think about it, doesn't it seem really odd that Prater- directly above the murder site and thus only a few yards away- would have heard someone cry out but NOT heard any of the sounds of a body being cut apart? Did she drift off again and was just a very deep sleeper, and Mr. Diddles just didn't happen to crawl on her again?

Hi Kensei,

I don’t think there’s anything odd about Prater not hearing anything directly after the cry and before dozing off to sleep again. It’s perfectly feasible that MJK’s throat was cut directly after the cry and that her killer kept still directly after cutting her throat, listening for sounds himself, trying to discern if the cry had caused alarm among inhabitants of the court. When, after half a minute or so, he heard no one react, he proceeded and Prater had probably fallen asleep again by then, not having heard any other sound again. Furthermore, I don’t think that cutting a body or even moving it would cause suspicious sounds, if they would be audible for Prater at all. Prater must have slept deep enough and apparently wasn't wakened again by Diddles.

All the best,
Frank

[Dr. John Watson]

I don't believe Kelly is the one who cried "Oh, murder!" A woman in fear for her life, perhaps facing imminent attack, would hardly waste time with words. Reflex alone, I think, would cause her to simply scream for her life, as loud as she possibly could, unless she was asleep or paralyzed with fear, in which case she would make no sound. I have always suspected that a friend - perhaps the prostitute who had stayed with her - came to Kelly's room after the murder and peered through the broken window to see if Kelly was home. There could still be enough light from the fireplace to reveal the ghastly sight on the bed - a sight that would certainly evoke the cry, "Oh, murder!" - a cry that would have come from just outside the room, as Kelly's neighbors have described it. The horrified witness then fled and forever kept silent, not wishing to become involved.

[perrymason]

There are no grounds for the suggestion that a knife attack on a woman capable of some resistance, and engaging in some.....(see medical opinions on left arm wounds)...would cause little or no noise on a rickety bed on old wood floors. There are also no grounds for a suggestion that Elizabeth would not hear that noise if it had occurred, as we have statements that indicate she could hear Mary merely "moving about" in the room....below hers.

Sarah Lewis though the cry was "at her door"...the Keylers door was just across the courtyard opposite that door...(some 8-10feet).....and Elizabeth Prater, who is on record saying she could hear Marys movement inside the house....says the cry sounded from outside the house....in the courtyard.

Marys windows and 2 small broken panes... covered from the inside by a pilot coat and curtains...faced the wall, that would not allow sound to escape that Sarah would hear "as at the door"....Elizabeth clearly says she heard the cry from outside the house, "as from the court".....which would suggest that if the cry was Mary at all, it was made by her from within the court outside her room....or from inside her room with the door open.

One makes perfect sense with the known and trusted evidence....and one needs some kind of speculative story to tie it up neatly. I prefer trusted, and sensible myself.

Cheers

[Sam Flynn]

One makes perfect sense with the known and trusted evidence....and one needs some kind of speculative story to tie it up neatly. I prefer trusted, and sensible myself.

I'm not sure quite how "trusted", or indeed "sensible", the evidence of a soporific drunk on the one hand, and a gossip-monger from Great Pearl Street on the other, can really be, Mike.

[perrymason]

I'm not sure quite how "trusted", or indeed "sensible", the evidence of a soporific drunk on the one hand, and a gossip-monger from Great Pearl Street on the other, can really be, Mike.

Perhaps in the soup that was the East End, thats a pretty good bet Sam. We really have no idea how credible they were.....the contemporary police had to sort that out....and they put them on a stand based on what they perceived their potential value was in determining the cause of death.

Cheers

[Sam Flynn]

We really have no idea how credible they were.....the contemporary police had to sort that out....and they put them on a stand based on what they perceived their potential value was in determining the cause of death.

They were largely all they had to work with, Mike - certainly in Kelly's case. The expression "Hobson's Choice" springs to mind. It's clear from Lewis's (or is that "Kennedy's") mutating and ever more sensational accounts in the press, the police and inquest statements that we should treat her evidence with a degree of caution. Prater, of course, was zonked and shagged-out for most of the night - and her story varies, on important points of detail, from police statement to inquest testimony, too.

That's not to say we throw the baby out with the bathwater, but it emphatically means that we can't take their words as "definitive" or "precise" in the slightest, when they're not even definitive or precise in themselves. I have little doubt that the truth is "out there, somewhere", but it ain't nailed down, not by a long chalk.

[perrymason]

Hi Sam,

I do see them in less than rosy light, so I am not arguing with some of the objections you have regarding them overall as what we might deem "dependable or trustworthy"...although Kennedy/Lewis may have been a press error from Central News or any of the individual press. Their timing, and their description of the location they felt the cry came from and its volume...are undeniably hard to explain without collusion....and I dont see that here myself.

They are among the few people locally that we might be able to use as witnesses, and I believe the 2 women closest to Mary Kelly, geographically, at the time the cry was heard.

I wish I could recall the source, but I do believe that in the press there was a 3rd ear-witness statement to the cry out near 3:45am as well. From someone in 25 Dorset? or 23 maybe?

Cheers Sam Flynn

[Sam Flynn]

Their timing, and their description of the location they felt the cry came from and its volume...are undeniably hard to explain without collusion....and I dont see that here myself.

I disagree, Mike - I can well imagine two scabby Spitalfields drabs having a good old gossip and swapping stories. This, alone, might explain why both women's stories changed between their police interview and the inquest. Even then, their descriptions are sufficiently imprecise and divergent to warrant concern.