mary Kellys clothes

[Veronica76]

Just a quick one what actually hapened to MJK and other victims clothes ? i Know forensics was basic then but were they destroyed at the time or did they go missing down the years whilst with the Police ? And has any authenticated clothing every surfaced anywhere ? also what happened to her bed/furniture/posessions etc

[Harry the Hawker]

The only surviving piece of victim's clothing I am aware of is an alleged piece of Catherine Eddowes' apron, I believe in Scotland Yard's Black Museum.

[Veronica76]

Hi Harry
Thanks for the reply, i feel really defeated now as i know my chances of seeing it are zero ........strange they lost everything ?

[Sam Flynn]

strange they lost everything ?

Not particularly, Veronica, when you consider that forensics was somewhat less than basic back then (not even fingerprinting was used by British police), and that most of the clothes these women wore would have been on their last legs - or, possibly, the legs of the bugs that lived in there - even before Jack tore at them, or soaked them in blood.

[Veronica76]

Girl needs more than one outfit

Hi Sam

Ddidn't think it was quite as dramatic as that ......... plus i was being a bit naive as im a girl who always has more than one outfit
Also saw some hokey Dereck Accorah type programme where they had a piece of a dress and a cape supposedly ?! but they could get DNA from it
ps what about jewellery ?

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Veronica,

i was being a bit naive as im a girl who always has more than one outfit

Ah, if only! Many of the East End poor practically lived, slept and worked in the same clothes for days on end - or longer, I shouldn't wonder. Polly Nichols was identified due to the fact that she was still wearing a petticoat from the Lambeth Workhouse, which she'd left fully four months earlier; the other "outdoor" victims variously wore patched skirts, aprons, darned stockings and crudely repaired men's boots with non-matching laces.

Also saw some hokey Dereck Accorah type programme where they had a piece of a dress and a cape supposedly ?! but they could get DNA from it

That's possibly the "Eddowes" shawl, which featured in a documentary last year if memory serves me correctly. Even if it was her shawl, then sadly no usable DNA was recovered by the researchers on that programme.

ps what about jewellery ?

Annie Chapman may have had some cheap brass rings removed by her killer; Liz Stride had old, healed-up holes in her earlobes where earrings must once have been; but that's about it. I suspect that whatever pitiful items of jewellery these women once owned had been traded in at the pawnbroker's many years before their deaths.

[Veronica76]

Hi Sam

That's so sad the reality of their poverty and desperation, even wearing mens shoes was everything they had on hock so to speak ? did their family/partners retrieve any items
Also as you seem to be the oracle on all matters, do you know anything about a painting she had in her room ? and her definate hair colour heard she was blonde/dark/red but no definates ?
Many thanks

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Veronica,

Kelly had a cheap print, reputedly called The Fisherman's Widow, on the wall. It seems, however, that the fixtures and fittings in her room all belonged to her landlord, John McCarthy - or so he claimed.

As to her partner retaining any items (or the partners of any of the other victims for that matter), I dare say that some pathetic keepsakes might well have been saved - although that's just speculation on my part. Even assuming they had, then heaven knows whether they've survived to this day.

[Veronica76]

Thanks Sam

Is it true she did some modelling in her time also ?

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks Sam

Is it true she did some modelling in her time also ?

There's no primary source that I can recall that says she did, Veronica. Some recent observers have suggested that she might have done a stint as an artist's model in France, but that's pure speculation.

[perrymason]

There's no primary source that I can recall that says she did, Veronica. Some recent observers have suggested that she might have done a stint as an artist's model in France, but that's pure speculation.

Hi Sam,

Since this period in time coincides with the artistic renaissance in Paris and London, and artists like Sickert often hired street prostitutes to pose for them, I dont think the idea has no validity.

She was not shoddily dressed, heavy, unattractive or without suitors, those facts alone might suggest she would make a good artists model.

I believe the fortnight in France...as what I assume was a courtesan, shows that Mary could interest men that wouldnt waste one minute of time on some of the less desirable prostitutes,....like Mary Ann Cox's press description paints of her.

Maybe Mary modeled while in France.
Best regards Sam.

[Sam Flynn]

Since this period in time coincides with the artistic renaissance in Paris and London, and artists like Sickert often hired street prostitutes to pose for them, I dont think the idea has no validity.

Indeed not, Mike - but it's still a bit fanciful. Whether in Paris or in London, there would have been many, many, many more women like Mary around.

[Veronica76]

Hi Sam

Many thanks, wasn't sure heard some stories of her time in Paris but none of it seems to be substantiated .

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all!

This thread seems to be a speculation about Mary's possible modeling in France!

Based on the fact, that she was young and good-looking to be a woman of her profession, it's quite possible!

But possibly she was that much "architype-goodlooking" ( I didn't figure out any better expression, sorry! ), that we see her without noticing in some French artists sketches!

The things making this presumption somewhat untrustwhorthy, are; if we think the sketch about her at the door of Miller's Court to be closest to living MJK, she may have had a kind of adolescent looking face. Perhaps a bit like Reese Witherspoon, to compare her with someone of the modern day actresses. Plus; she was 5'7" (that is 170,28 cm), as tall as the men of the time!

And now to the theme of this thread; even if we could find DNA from any confirmed piece of the vics clothing, to which the samples could be compared? Especially, if we would try to track down The Jack himself!

All the best
Jukka

[claire]

Grief, Jukka, I don't know that you could ascertain much about MJK's face from the photos...

Often I look at Degas' redheads and think of Mary.