Why Did MJK Leave the Brothel?

[Archaic]

I've been wondering for a long time what reasons could have prompted Mary Kelly to leave the relative security of "brothel life" for the much more difficult, dangerous & uncertain life of a Whitechapel street prostitute. Mary is always described as young, attractive, and respectably dressed, so she doesn't seem to have been a hopelessly alcoholic dead-ender. She seems to have been in a much better position than most to make certain basic choices, yet she ended up in poverty, one short step away from homelessness.

- Perhaps her recurrent bouts of Venereal Disease got her kicked out of the brothel?

- Or a combination of V.D. & excessive drinking encouraged the brothel owners to give her the boot?

- And what was the real reason Mary returned so quickly from her excursion to France? I find it hard to believe that she simply didn't like France, or being a 'kept woman'- perhaps she did something there that made it wise for her to leave?

-Was Mary having an affair in Breezer's Hill and/or Whitechapel with someone like her landlord, McCarthy, and as both that affair & the one with Barnett petered out she found herself steadily sliding down the economic ladder into street prostitution?

Mary Kelly is quite the enigma... Any thoughts you might have on these questions are welcome. Best regards, Archaic

[Khanada]

Do we have any proof that Mary Jane ever actually had an STD?

Do we have any proof that Mary Jane ever actually lived and worked in a brothel, West End or otherwise?

Do we have any proof that Mary Jane ever actually travelled south of the Thames, let alone to France?

I'm not sure that it isn't a slippery slope to tread, speculating on the "whys" of things that may have been nothing more than a load of codswallop stories Mary Jane told to make herself feel better, or to make her friends think she was of a better sort or had known better days -- or which her friends told after her death, to make her sound better.

We just don't know where these stories came from, or how much was truth and how much was fiction. Faced with that, it can be fun to speculate, but that's all it can be with so many "unknowns" and "unknowables": speculation.

[kensei]

I would say the length of time she was with Joe Barnett qualifies it as a relationship, not an "affair." Just being nit-picky, I guess.

[Hellrider]

Hey Archaic, I agree completely to what Khanada wrote...

if you would like to get an idea of how it could (!!) have happened, then read "The Seduction Of Mary Kelly" by William Perring. He finds some interesting and realistic explanations

[Archaic]

Choices: Throw it all out or investigate & see what we find?

Hi, guys. I realize that absolutely everything about MJK is a mystery- we don't even know if Mary Jane Kelly was her real name! And it's looking more & more likely that it was not, which is why she can't be traced.

So we are left with a choice: we can either choose to dismiss everything we have ever heard about Mary Jane Kelly up to the awful moment she was found murdered in her room, OR we can try to investigate the various little aspects of her story & see if it goes anywhere & sheds any light.

I am personally skeptical about all of Mary's stories, and so far none can be verified- including her true identity. But there are a number of assertions about her past to be found in print (books, newspapers, here on CB) regarding Mary's purported employment in a London brothel, a long-term convalescence from v.d., her supposed trip to France, etc. Again, maybe NONE of them are true.

I was thinking about the nature of the "life story" she is reported to have told to Joe Barnett & others, and it's strikingly different from Liz Stride's mournful tale about losing her husband & children on the Princess Alice, which of course has been exposed as a bid for attention, sympathy & assistance.

Mary's purported claims are very different. For instance, she admits to being a prostitute from a young age. She admits to being a whore in a brothel.
Perhaps Mary at some point in her youth aspired to be a more highly paid brothel-worker & 'kept woman', but it never happened? If so that would at least tell us a bit about her personal mindset. Brothel prostitution seems a rather pathetic career to aspire to, especially if it never happened & you tell lies about it. I suppose it is marginally more impressive than being a street prostitute in Whitechapel, but i would think that if Mary were lying to her lover Joe she could have come up with a more attractive lie than that.

So what might these biographical claims tell us about Mary whether they are actual FACTS or her own brand of personal LIES?

*Obviously, if they are shown to be other peoples' lies, there's not much to discuss other than the phenomenon of 'projection'!

Best regards, Archaic PS: Hellrider, I will look for that book you suggested; thank you!

[perrymason]

Hi, guys. I realize that absolutely everything about MJK is a mystery- we don't even know if Mary Jane Kelly was her real name! And it's looking more & more likely that it was not, which is why she can't be traced.

So we are left with a choice: we can either choose to dismiss everything we have ever heard about Mary Jane Kelly up to the awful moment she was found murdered in her room, OR we can try to investigate the various little aspects of her story & see if it goes anywhere & sheds any light.

I am personally skeptical about all of Mary's stories, and so far none can be verified- including her true identity. But there are a number of assertions about her past to be found in print (books, newspapers, here on CB) regarding Mary's purported employment in a London brothel, a long-term convalescence from v.d., her supposed trip to France, etc. Again, maybe NONE of them are true.

I was thinking about the nature of the "life story" she is reported to have told to Joe Barnett & others, and it's strikingly different from Liz Stride's mournful tale about losing her husband & children on the Princess Alice, which of course has been exposed as a bid for attention, sympathy & assistance.

Mary's purported claims are very different. For instance, she admits to being a prostitute from a young age. She admits to being a whore in a brothel.
Perhaps Mary at some point in her youth aspired to be a more highly paid brothel-worker & 'kept woman', but it never happened? If so that would at least tell us a bit about her personal mindset. Brothel prostitution seems a rather pathetic career to aspire to, especially if it never happened & you tell lies about it. I suppose it is marginally more impressive than being a street prostitute in Whitechapel, but i would think that if Mary were lying to her lover Joe she could have come up with a more attractive lie than that.

So what might these biographical claims tell us about Mary whether they are actual FACTS or her own brand of personal LIES?

*Obviously, if they are shown to be other peoples' lies, there's not much to discuss other than the phenomenon of 'projection'!

Best regards, Archaic PS: Hellrider, I will look for that book you suggested; thank you!

Hi Archaic,

I dont know if this was a factor for Mary specifically, but local Brewing heir Fredrick Charrington is said to have closed down some 200 brothels during the 1887-1888 period due to his campaigning for their closure on moral grounds.

Many brothel women were forced to the streets.

Cheers Archaic

[Sam Flynn]

Perhaps they ran out of broth?

[Supe]

Of course, it would be nice to confirm that Mary Jane had actually been in a West End brothel and actually been to France before expending a whole of theorizing energy on the topic. But then that is Ripperology as she is played.

Don.

[perrymason]

Of course, it would be nice to confirm that Mary Jane had actually been in a West End brothel and actually been to France before expending a whole of theorizing energy on the topic. But then that is Ripperology as she is played.

Don.

And thats just one of the "nice to confirm" issues that makes up a lot of this history Don, ....at least we don't disagree with the value of the ammunition we are given.

Best regards Don

[Christine]

I'm guessing a lot of you don't know much about brothels. Sometimes the women end up owing the owners money. They get charged for their room and board, for their clothes, for the customer's drinks, anything the owner can think up. They have to pay tips to the bouncer and the piano player. Usually the women start out in debt, often because the owner pays their passage from a foreign country. She probably could make more out on the streets, and at least she could come and go as she pleased and turn down clients. It's not always like this, but I doubt if MJK was a high-class worker.

[jason_c]

I'm guessing a lot of you don't know much about brothels. Sometimes the women end up owing the owners money. They get charged for their room and board, for their clothes, for the customer's drinks, anything the owner can think up. They have to pay tips to the bouncer and the piano player. Usually the women start out in debt, often because the owner pays their passage from a foreign country. She probably could make more out on the streets, and at least she could come and go as she pleased and turn down clients. It's not always like this, but I doubt if MJK was a high-class worker.

Or she was kicked out because she was an alcoholic.

[Mr.Hyde]

Mr.Hyde

Do we have any proof that Mary Jane ever actually had an STD?

Do we have any proof that Mary Jane ever actually lived and worked in a brothel, West End or otherwise?

Do we have any proof that Mary Jane ever actually travelled south of the Thames, let alone to France?

I'm not sure that it isn't a slippery slope to tread, speculating on the "whys" of things that may have been nothing more than a load of codswallop stories Mary Jane told to make herself feel better, or to make her friends think she was of a better sort or had known better days -- or which her friends told after her death, to make her sound better.

We just don't know where these stories came from, or how much was truth and how much was fiction. Faced with that, it can be fun to speculate, but that's all it can be with so many "unknowns" and "unknowables": speculation.

Reckon you are on the right track.Never really left the area.STDs-probably yes.

[Chava]

A West End Brothel would be a nice tale to spin the punters. Gives her a bit of class. Maybe allows her to charge a little more than the others.

I imagine she tailored her story to fit the occasion. Some more sentimental types would have heard the widowed-at-16 story. Some upwardly mobile tricks would have gotten the high-class bordello-and-trip-to-France story. And if asked for her whole history she tied both stories together in a neat little bow with her cousin-who-helped-her-go-bad story.

I don't believe a word of any of it!

[Archaic]

If the West End brothel story both came from Mary and is a complete lie, I think it's quite interesting that she would use it.

Mary might have chosen instead to have built upon the bit of status she purportedly enjoyed among her neighbors for being somewhat more 'educated', 'attractive' & 'respectable' than the average Whitechapel Unfortunate.

For instance, "I went to work as a Nanny for a gentleman's family but he did me wrong and made me what I am today."

Best regards, Archaic

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all!

I think, that MJK's being a what-do-we-know-for-fact? person in this puzzle, shows her being a witty story-teller.

So, there might be two options to look at her story;

1. She had heard the stories about the fate of the other unfortunates and picked any suitable one for her own purposes...

2. She really told about the real events of her life, but told them enough out of key(this is a Finnish metaphor for these "life-stories"! )!

All the best
Jukka