why so confident

[richardnunweek]

Hello,
We all know that the east end of London in the 1880s was rough to say the least, we also know that Dorset street had a reputation.
My question is therefore 'Why was the killer of Mary Kelly so confident.?
If one takes Hutchinsons Astracan man as a likely killer, what made him so confident that this young woman that he had just encountered, and her suggesting that they go back to her room was not a invitation for disaster.
He could have been led into a police trap, or mayby into a mugging feast'
Why would he walk into Dorset street, and enter a passage, into a court with confidence?
Here we have a man , dressed in his sunday best , about to commit a butchery, with no worries of any intervention, even though he has been followed by a stranger.
Does that ring true, if Hutch was telling the truth?.
The only two realistic explanations.
a] Hutchinsons account is bogus.
b] Astracan knew Mary , and she him , and millers court held no fear for him.
If one ignores Astracan as the killer, and i would suggest one should, as i would say that Mary was killed by a stranger[ complete contrast to my usual thoughts] not someone she knew and trusted.
I have recently come to terms with the idea that the last man she[ claimed] was seen with was her likely killer, that person being Maxwells market porter, i would suggest to you all that it would have been far easier for both Him and Kelly to enter that room.
Kelly, because as all the other murders were during the night, she would not have suspected this guy as being dangerous to her, after all there were many people about, and it was safe to take a man back to her room.
The man would also know it was unlikely that it would be a police trap, at 9am , also unlikely that he would be acosted by a gang of thugs, using kelly as a decoy at that hour.
So summing up.
Kelly must have known Astracan to have allowed him to return to her room at that hour, and because of this and his state of dress, i find it unlikely he was her killer.
Astracan must have known kelly, to feel safe at that hour of the night in returning to a prostitutes house, up some dingy court.
But Market porter [ if the killer] would be confident that no trap was set at 9am , and kelly would never have suspected he was her soon to be kille.
Opinions please.
Regards Richard.

[sdreid]

Little doubt that Kelley's guard would have been down at that hour.

[Ben]

Hi Richard,

Dorset Street in the small hours of the morning was about the worst place and time to be parading your expensive, ostentatious clothes and accessories. Add the "Jack" factor the mix, with all its attendant speculation and scaremongering that the ripper might have been a medically trained and/or Jewish menace, and an imprudent saunter into that locality dressed like the very bogeyman becomes nothing short of a suicide mission, since he'd have been attracting suspicion from the wannabe vigilantes and interest from the potential muggers, neither of which were in short supply at that time and place.

I'd go with option "a]".

All the best,
Ben

[jason_c]

Richard,

If Astracan was the killer he had a big knife and was desperate.

Also, many males take all sorts of risks to fulfill their sexual gratification.

[Ben]

Also, many males take all sorts of risks to fulfill their sexual gratification

In this case, the "risk" in question would have markedly reduced the chances of that sexual gratification being fulfilled though, Jason.

[celee]

Hi Randy,

I guess we are dealing with a killer. What made him so confident that he could kill in the street and not be detected. He was willing to take risk obviously.

I think I get were you are going. He could have been led into a trap very easy. Kelly could of had the police witing for him. I doubt that it would have done any good. I mean back in 1888 Kelly would of had to been killed for them to connect him to the Ripper murders. I think the answer is simple, Tumblety was just willing to take the chance. He probably felt safer going to a lodging then he did when he killed in the street.

Your friend, Brad

[Mr Chumley]

appearance

The only report we have of Astrakhan is by Hutchinson around 5 foot 6 inches, Jewish, dark felt hat turned down in the middle - slouch hat?.

Lawende suggested a sailor look, peaked cap, 5 foot 6 inches to five foot 8.

Schwartz has a) "rough sort" peaked hat (possibly sailor style)man 5foot 5 and b) "pipe man" old black felt hat around 5 foot 11 inches.

Marshall a) Bricklayers arms observation 5 foot 5 tall billycock hat b) later observation sailors type hat 5 foot 6 tall.

Mrs Darell foreigner, height unkown, one would guess therefore average or she might have commented tall or short, shabby genteel possibly brown deerstalker..

1 brown deerstalker
1 billycock
1 possible slouch hat
1 old black felt hat
3 possible sailor type hats

Assuming that Jack did not have a large wardrobe to change from, that some of the images were fuelled by the "toff" theory linked with the Jeckyll and hyde production, a variety of chaps were suspiciously viewed and the testimonies were an attempt to be helpful or even led by the questioner, we are left with an average height male, dressed most likely in working clothes possibly in a sailors type hat.
Can anyone add anything else to this list, do we have a generic pen picture?
Please excuse me if this line has already been done to death...

[perrymason]

His confidence may have been linked to the state of his targetted victim when he arrives, which by all accounts suggests she was sleeping off a "spreeish" night.

Confidence requires control though, and by entering a tiny courtyard through its only access way.... to enter a small room in the court and carve a woman up with his back to the door and windows, is to me, someone out of control. Unless he has someone watching the archway or the street, he is the most vulnerable he will ever be to being seen and caught ....if Jack of course.

Best regards Richard, all.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Ben obviously is biased in his assumption, that Astracan was a figment of Hutchinsons imagination, for he suggests that such a well dressed man would never have dared to venture into the worst street/streets in the area.
I agree with that obvious deduction, but if Hutch was telling the truth he did percisely that, and hense the thread i started was formed.
What made him so confident?
Lets assume that he was the Whitechapel killer, and he was on the prowl again, he would have to have been completely mad to have presented himself with that appearance, talk about drawing attention to oneself...so here we have a well dressed man armed with the tools of his trade loitering around Thrawl street at 2am in the morning, awaiting a middle aged homeless streetwalker to come into sight, when all of a sudden his luck is in , walking towards him was a young, attractive woman, who not only welcomes his advances, but offers a invitatation to her room, that is empty, he is so confident with her, he walks back , with arm around her shoulder, after having had a good laugh together, he passes Hutch , who eyes him up., and follows on behind them.
Question.
If Kellys client was Jack, would he have appeared so confident?
Hutch could have been a plain clothes officer, or a minder, or a member of the Lusk brigade, this young woman may have been leading him into a trap, either by the police. or prospects of being mugged, either way if he was the killer, he would have been apprehensive.
All right people might suggest that the reason no cries were heard straight away was that fear on his part, and he wanted to be certain nothing was going to happen, but if it did as soon as he arrived in the court, he would have been found with his knife on his person.
I will suggest that if Astracan did exist, then he was not the killer of kelly. and i would suggest that Mary knew him well enough to allow him to stay in her room, he in my opinion had no weapon on his person, and although possibly unnerved by Hutchies intrest, was proberly assured by kelly, he was harmless.
It was my intention in this thread to give a reason why Mary may have been caught off guard, as it appears she was paronoid about the killings, and would have been unlikely to have taken any stranger home during darkness, but how about daylight?
Maxwells market porter, however is a different kettle of fish, it is 845am, it is daylight , whitechapel is alive and buzzing, a man chats her up, the last thing on her mind would have been 'Am i safe'?
'you want a quickie luv?
Yes ,, comes the reply
I have a room just down the road, down millers court, we wont be disturbed, just give me five minutes, to get ready, then come along to my room , second door on the right down the passage, come straight in.
That suggestion suits Mary, she could undress ready, also no nosey eyes from McCarthys shop.
And if the market porter was the whitechapel killer, it would suit him well, it would be unlikely that this would be a trap, of any kind, and at last he had the privacy he longed for.
That is how my mind sees this ongoing mystery.
Regards Richard.

[kensei]

One factor I don't think we should ignore- MJK was seen drinking with more than one person throughout the night and was known to have been fairly drunk by the hours after midnight. I would think it fairly unlikely that she was still awake- or awake again- at nine in the morning rather than "crashing" before dawn to sleep it off, as I'm sure she was used to doing.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Kensie,
Ye she was reported to be drunk around midnight , as the singing would suggest, and again described as tipsy around 2am, and you are correct in assuming that sleep at some time would have to have occured.
We could assume that if Astracan and Mary had some sexual contact, that it was likely that kelly could have been asleep before 3am, with or without client.
It is a fact that alcohol induces a deep sleep , but for short periods, one tends to wake up in the night , not only for natures needs , but from the result of the alcohol.
The cries heard at approx 4am, have three possibilities.
1] Marys last moments.
2] A cry not from the court
3] awakening from a nightmare.
On form number three is the choice.
Not only did Mrs Prater state at the inquest, the sound she heard sounded like 'awakening from a nightmare' , but it correspondes well with what Lottie informed Kit Watkins some three years later[ Lottie was a resident in the court in 1888 ,and knew kelly] when she said Kelly told her of a nightmare she had in which she was being murdered.
If one takes the theme of kellys dream as being 'murdered' then it is a fair assumption that the cry of '0h Murder' would be significant, if the cry heard was a reocurrance of that dream.
Also Maxwell claims kelly told her' oh Carrie, i do feel bad, i have the horrors of drink', which might explain why she was up and about so early, the horrors of drink might have refered to the nightmare.
Regards Richard.

[The Good Michael]

Richard,

Choices 1 and 3 seem reasonable in combination.

Mike

[Ben]

Hi Richard,

Astrakhan man doesn't need to be "Jack" for his appearance to be implausible. Everthing I mentioned in post #3 holds true regardless of whether or not he murdered anyone.

Best regards,
Ben

[smezenen]

Another avenue I have been trying to explore will fit here also. If Jack where a Policeman he would have known about any trap beforehand.

In uniform he would have no fear of walking down any street or into any court, maybe jiggling a door knob here and there to see what doors open.

Out of uniform he would have more concern but he may also have an Alpha Predator attitude. The same attitude that allows a soldier to walk thru a crowded Baghdad market. How would you like to try mugging the Ripper? I think even a hardened criminal would find himself in dire straits when confronted with Jacks knife skill.

A snipers prayer: (adapted from the 23rd Psalms)
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil: For I am the baddest thing in the valley;
My rifle and my skill, they comfort me.
Thou preparest a table before me and present me with a clear view of mine enemies;
Thou annointest my eyes with focused vision; My cup runneth over.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Ben,
The whole issue is you firm belief that Hutchinson was a liar, that he walked into the staion on the monday evening, mayby after being present at the inquest, and the whole statement was a fabracation, for reasons known only to himself.
Was he the murderer?, and came forward because of fear.
Did he invent a bogus man, and refer to a red hanky . because he was the man that walked with Kelly , that morning, he was the man that gave her a kiss on Dorset street, and he was the man that gave up his red hankerchief, and was worried that it could be traced back to him , and link him being in that room.
Both these scenerios are plausible, i prefer the last.
But i still believe Hutchnsons sighting was authentic, and for some reason the man had no mistrust of Kelly, or fear of Dorset street, was he known in that area perhaps?
The detective in me has to eliminate the man that maxwells official statement mentions , ie the Market porter, for he was the last male on record to have spoken with the victim.
She was giving her evidence under oath, and we have no reason, therefore to not trust her.
we all know that she is the key to kellys time of death, but that ugly term 'Rigor Mortis rears its head, and everyone on casebook will not accept her death at being 9am, on the morning of the 9th.
Regards Richard.