Jack had to slip up

[NOV9]

And you've got those two flipped. Sadists are relatively common, at least compared to mutilation serial killers.

Dan,

You said, "Sadists are relatively common".

Please name one killer that they caught, whom was a sadist.

Or if they are as common as you say, name 3 or 4 that you know.

I will know if you are bluffing or not.

NOV9

[Dan Norder]

You really should not talk about such matters that you are not educated in.

Actually, abnormal psychology was what I specialized in at college. What sort of education do you want us to believe you have about the topic?

You said, "Post mortem cuts are a form of sadism." do you really believe that?

Of course I believe that. They're officially classified by psychiatric professionals as necrosadism, a subset of sadism, so I'm in good company.

If your argument is that someone who cuts a body who is already dead cannot be a sadist, the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (the primary source for professionally diagnosing mental conditions) states that there a long list of paraphilias that are frequently associated with sexual sadism, and explicitly listed among them are piqueurism (the stabbing of the body, as we see in the Ripper murders) and necrophilia (with "mutilating corpses" specifically mentioned).

You said, "Sadists are relatively common".

Yes, and I also said "at least compared to mutilation serial killers."

Please name one killer that they caught, whom was a sadist.

I named three already in this thread yesterday. And, come on, pick any of the most famous serial killers and you're bound to be talking about a sadist: Ted Bundy, the Hillside Stranglers, Albert Fish, the Boston Strangler, and so forth and so on...

[NOV9]

Actually, abnormal psychology was what I specialized in at college. What sort of education do you want us to believe you have about the topic?



Of course I believe that. They're officially classified by psychiatric professionals as necrosadism, a subset of sadism, so I'm in good company.

If your argument is that someone who cuts a body who is already dead cannot be a sadist, the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (the primary source for professionally diagnosing mental conditions) states that there a long list of paraphilias that are frequently associated with sexual sadism, and explicitly listed among them are piqueurism (the stabbing of the body, as we see in the Ripper murders) and necrophilia (with "mutilating corpses" specifically mentioned).



Yes, and I also said "at least compared to mutilation serial killers."



I named three already in this thread yesterday. And, come on, pick any of the most famous serial killers and you're bound to be talking about a sadist: Ted Bundy, the Hillside Stranglers, Albert Fish, the Boston Strangler, and so forth and so on...

Well Dan,

I asked for names of Sadist killers, and you offered up Ted Bundy (a wannabe lawyer) that killed his victims so he could have sex with the cadaver, over and over again) come on now he did not torture them, please read up on him, he was not at sadist.

Again you offered up another name Albert Fish, now that is a real old case, again he was not a sadist, and yes he did get into pain, mostly to himself. He was a masochist, and a killer.

The Boston Strangler, Albert Desalvo, I knew his family. Where did you learn that about him?

Ok you have an impressive education, but seriously you should really think before you toss killers into the sadist category.

You have not given me any sadist names; All right I’ll make it easy for you, how about just one killer? The local cops brought him in, he was actually caught by accident, and (it was a traffic violation.) Any more than that, and I might as well tell you his name.

You have proved to me that you do not understand what a sadist is, but that is OK, it does not matter. Because we are not talking about sadist killers on this site.

I will not be pulled into a head-banging contest of my education versus yours, so please do not go there.

If you do not come up with the name of the killer, it’s Ok I will tell you whom it was, and that will be the end of it. I do not want to drag this on.

NOV9

[Dan Norder]

No offense, but there's nothing to drag on. Insisting that the people I named were not sadists doesn't change the fact that they were. If you don't know what you're talking about, and refuse to believe it even when the APA's diagnostic manual description is pointed out to you, then there's no hope of changing your mind.

[paul emmett]

Doesn't a lot of this have to do with definitions? I agreed with Dan's point regarding the sadism of JTR before any disagreement arose. And even though I do not study serial killers besides Jack, my gut response to the question of which ones were sadists was, "All of 'em!" So now I look under sadism in Pontalis's THE LANGUAGE OF PSYCHOANALYSIS, and find, "cases where there is an association between sexuality and violence used against others."

So for me, with this definition, done deal. JTR, sadist.

[NOV9]

No offense, but there's nothing to drag on. Insisting that the people I named were not sadists doesn't change the fact that they were. If you don't know what you're talking about, and refuse to believe it even when the APA's diagnostic manual description is pointed out to you, then there's no hope of changing your mind.

Gentlemen,

Lets be friends. Just because we do not agree, does not mean we can’t get along. Really what does it matter? Who is right or wrong about sadist killers? I have read the text on this sexual sadist, and I do not agree with the experts. so what ?

Sometimes I forget that I’m on a site that is investigating a 120-year-old murder, and having discussions with people of all walks of life, and with different opinions. You must forgive me for taking this so seriously. In my line of business I see the worst of people all the time. And I bring the burnt toast to this site.

I will not do this again.

Dan with your background, maybe I could pick your brain for thoughts on signature, if you can excuse my ignorance.

NOV9

[NOV9]

Gentlemen,

Lets be friends. Just because we do not agree, does not mean we can’t get along. Really what does it matter? Who is right or wrong about sadist killers? I have read the text on this sexual sadist, and I do not agree with the experts. so what ?

Sometimes I forget that I’m on a site that is investigating a 120-year-old murder, and having discussions with people of all walks of life, and with different opinions. You must forgive me for taking this so seriously. In my line of business I see the worst of people all the time. And I bring the burnt toast to this site.

I will not do this again.

Dan with your background, maybe I could pick your brain for thoughts on signature, if you can excuse my ignorance.

NOV9

Oh well I guess Mr. Dan is not a forgiving man.

As I was saying, after some thought on this sadist, Sam was right, Jack was a sexual sadistic killer, neither Jack nor Mary's killer was sadist. Jack did enjoy hurting his victim, but he did not torture them, simply because a Sadist wants to keep them alive as long as possible, in order to for fill his fantasy of inflicting pain. Can you say that Jack was doing that?

Reference Mike Debardeleben, he was the meanest, Sadist than anyone past or present.

[NOV9]

Oh well I guess Mr. Dan is not a forgiving man.

As I was saying, after some thought on this sadist, Sam was right, Jack was a sexual sadistic killer, neither Jack nor Mary's killer was sadist. Jack did enjoy hurting his victim, but he did not torture them, simply because a Sadist wants to keep them alive as long as possible, in order to for fill his fantasy of inflicting pain. Can you say that Jack was doing that?

Reference Mike Debardeleben, he was the meanest, Sadist than anyone past or present.

I have to post this.

Necrosadism
Sexual gratification derived by mutilating corpses.

This does not sound like a sadist; it sounds sadistic but definitely not sadist.

OK I got my point across, enough said.

[Dan Norder]

NOV9, you posted:

Jack was a sexual sadistic killer, neither Jack nor Mary's killer was sadist.

and then:

This does not sound like a sadist; it sounds sadistic but definitely not sadist.

How on earth could you get the idea that someone with a mental disorder that is explicitly classified as sadistic somehow isn't a sadist?

That doesn't even require any knowledge of psychology, it's just simple English. Someone with narcissistic personality disorder is a narcissist. A person who acts on cannibalistic desires is a cannibal. Someone who kills is a killer.

[NOV9]

The Killers Signature

This is a look into the killers mind, why is it important for him to leave signature after the kill. Necrosadism mutilating the corpse, is signature.

Mary Kelly, and Eddowes have the killers signature. As well as the others.

As you know signature tells allot about the killer, what he thinks, how he feels, why he hates prostitutes.

What I'm looking for here, is if someone on this site would like to discuss signature killers? in the hope of understanding the killer or killers of Whitechapel.

[NOV9]

NOV9, you posted:



and then:



How on earth could you get the idea that someone with a mental disorder that is explicitly classified as sadistic somehow isn't a sadist?

That doesn't even require any knowledge of psychology, it's just simple English. Someone with narcissistic personality disorder is a narcissist. A person who acts on cannibalistic desires is a cannibal. Someone who kills is a killer.

Dan,

You are still missing the point; I’m wasting my time discussing this with you, so lets just drop it OK.

This discussion is over.

[NOV9]

NOV9, you posted:



and then:



How on earth could you get the idea that someone with a mental disorder that is explicitly classified as sadistic somehow isn't a sadist?

That doesn't even require any knowledge of psychology, it's just simple English. Someone with narcissistic personality disorder is a narcissist. A person who acts on cannibalistic desires is a cannibal. Someone who kills is a killer.

Dan,

You are still missing the point; I’m wasting my time discussing this with you.
You seem to be struggling with this.

So lets just drop it OK.

[Doctor X]

With all due respect, with your repetition it appears you are the one struggling with the evidence.

Yours truly,

--J.D.

[NOV9]

With all due respect, with your repetition it appears you are the one struggling with the evidence.

Yours truly,

--J.D.

It was a glitch, in the software.

So do you want to discuss Jack's Signature?

[NOV9]

This is a look into the killers mind, why is it important for him to leave signature after the kill. Necrosadism mutilating the corpse, is signature.

Mary Kelly, and Eddowes have the killers signature. As well as the others.

As you know signature tells allot about the killer, what he thinks, how he feels, why he hates prostitutes.

What I'm looking for here, is if someone on this site would like to discuss signature killers? in the hope of understanding the killer or killers of Whitechapel.

Signatures are the only way the killer truly expresses himself.

The killer may change his MO, but he will never change his signature.

Jack's signature was constant, you can see it in his kills and the change in signature indicated that the killer of Mary Kelly was clearly not Jack