Jack had to slip up

[paul emmett]

Hi all,

Actually Paul if he was a copycat he was an extremely capable one, because he has fooled many thousands by now. Mary had many things performed upon her, many things that were strictly to injure or further maim a corpse...but some acts did have resonance with Ripper acts.

In keeping with the thread title, I think Marys killer slipped up when he took the heart. Whatever role the uterus had played with the Ripper up until that point was dismissed. The uterus being the only organ both Annie and Kate, lost to a greater and lesser degree.. respectively. Perhaps that is most troubling to the believers of a sexual serial predator named Jack, and that he killed Mary Kelly, ... is that point.

Hello Michael,

Admitted, he has fooled MANY thousands, but isn't another point to the womb/heart issue that the killer isn't interested in copying. You can hardly take a heart by mistake. If one wants to be like Jack, one takes a uterus--or at least a kidney. Along with your closing question, can't we just as well ask: if ya want to be JTR why not take Kelly's uterus; it's already cut out of her?

Have a good day,
Paul

[c.d.]

Hi Michael,

Are we to assume that the killer of Annie and the killer of Kate were completely different individuals since Annie's kidney was not removed and there were no slashes to her face. Furthermore, if we assign some romantic or emotional significance to Mary's heart being taken, what emotion or significance do we assign to Kate's kidney?

c.d.

[NOV9]

Hi Michael,

Are we to assume that the killer of Annie and the killer of Kate were completely different individuals since Annie's kidney was not removed and there were no slashes to her face. Furthermore, if we assign some romantic or emotional significance to Mary's heart being taken, what emotion or significance do we assign to Kate's kidney?

c.d.

Hi C.D.

When you were young, and you got into fist fights with some kid that was
Really annoying you. There is a moment that you felt real rage and wanted
To hurt him real bad.

Think about that when you see the killer in your mind, only his rage is uncontrollable to the point of murder and mutilation, it is not that he wants to control this rage, rather he enjoys it. And at that you can see him more clearly, than all the reading you have done about one.

There is nothing romantic about Jack, he lacks emotion, and he had no remorse about what he did.

Jack was able to walk among the people of Whitechapel and would seem as normal as any one else, until something triggers his rage.

He was a wolf in sheep clothing.

Jack was not capable of love, his only love if that is what you want to believe, was for himself.

Copy cat killings were not uncommon, it helps other killers to blame it on the Ripper.

[NOV9]

Hi NOV9,

We had that great thread, right before the crash, on MJK: copycat? And, of course, the results were multiple. Some used the many numerous differences in the MJK crime scene to try to prove the killer wasn't JTR. I'm not sure if I agree with that, but I do think that if the killer is a copycat, he's about the world's worst.

but I do think that if the killer is a copycat, he's about the world's worst.

Is it Just because Mary was mutilated, more than the others?

Mary and Eddowe's hit was personal.

Jack was not personal.

[NOV9]

Hi all,

Actually Paul if he was a copycat he was an extremely capable one, because he has fooled many thousands by now. Mary had many things performed upon her, many things that were strictly to injure or further maim a corpse...but some acts did have resonance with Ripper acts.

In keeping with the thread title, I think Marys killer slipped up when he took the heart. Whatever role the uterus had played with the Ripper up until that point was dismissed. The uterus being the only organ both Annie and Kate, lost to a greater and lesser degree.. respectively. Perhaps that is most troubling to the believers of a sexual serial predator named Jack, and that he killed Mary Kelly, ... is that point. Why would a killer who symbolically has dealt exclusively with the region from thigh to breastbone of women....taking specifically womens reproductive organs from 2 of the three with organs taken, suddenly fixates on an organ which could symbolize connections,or loss, of Love, Life, ..a persons Soul, but not anything remotely gender specific.

So is Jack now just killing any homo sapien, the fact that they are women meaning less as he continues his mad rage against the unfairness of fistulas, or having a whore for a Mother, or a bitch for a wife.......

Until you start really thinking about what he takes...and I dont mean just assuming he likes trophies,...far to dismissive, since we know that these female reproductive organs were at some point solicited before the rampage from Teaching Hospitals, at least one virtually authenticated the claim,... they were used in East European/Germanic rituals, and I know of one Doctor who implanted uteri into rich people in London during that period to "live forever/gain immortality".....then a change in organs becomes very significant when attributing Mary to the same killer as Kate and Annie.

If Jack the Ripper wanted uteri, then why leave Marys, when its already cut out of her.

My best regards all.

That was well written, now why would he mutilate the face? If you can see the rage, and think of the cuts to mouth and tongue, what was he trying to say with this signature.

This is unsafe thinking but you almost have to be in his mind for this.

[c.d.]

Hi Nov 9,

I don't think that we can designate rage or any other emotion as Jack's motivating factor. We simply don't know what drove him. Perhaps it was sexual or even political or some bizarre ritual that he was fulfilling. We simply don't know and never will. All we can do is speculate.

And if we designate Mary's and Kate's face slashing as being personal, how do we decipher ripping out intestines and carving flesh off of a thigh? It seems that we are picking and choosing if we go that route.

c.d.

[Blackkat]

and where did her heart go???

Was it thrown in the fire? - that would be heartburn mah' bad

[NOV9]

and where did her heart go???

Was it thrown in the fire? - that would be heartburn mah' bad

Like c.d. says Who knows?

we can only speculate.

[NOV9]

Hi Nov 9,

I don't think that we can designate rage or any other emotion as Jack's motivating factor. We simply don't know what drove him. Perhaps it was sexual or even political or some bizarre ritual that he was fulfilling. We simply don't know and never will. All we can do is speculate.

And if we designate Mary's and Kate's face slashing as being personal, how do we decipher ripping out intestines and carving flesh off of a thigh? It seems that we are picking and choosing if we go that route.

c.d.

You are right C.D. who knows. lets forget about it.

[Fisherman]

Michael writes:
"I think Marys killer slipped up when he took the heart"

Not so sure about that, Michael. If you are to point out the two innards carrying the largest symbolic meanings of a womans inside, I fail to see which bits and pieces could compete with heart and uterus. Also, both of them carry implications of love-connected issues.

...meaning that I am a lot more troubled by the taking of Eddowes´ kidney, than I am perplexed by Kellys loss of her heart. That kidney deprives us of the obvious explanations and challenges us to start looking in Bible messages and masonic rituals, and it all becomes so much more far-fetched all of a sudden.
So maybe we should go for the only other simple explanation offered by the combination uteri - kidney - heart?

The best, Michael, all,

Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Fisherman,

So maybe we should go for the only other simple explanation offered by the combination uteri - kidney - heart?

All three organs are comparatively solid and portable. The heart and kidney are also edible. I'd go for portability over cannibalism, on balance.

[paul emmett]

Hi, all.

Nov9, you asked why I thought MJK's killer was a bad copycat. Consider the heart/womb choice that I mentioned. It seems to me that JTR could take the heart and not the womb, for numeruos reasons, symbolic, progression, whatever. Also your average killer could take the heart for many of the same reasons and a ton more. But a copycat killer COULDN'T take the heart: it's NOT copying. In turn, all of the differences in the MJK crime scene which might make us say JTR did not do it, by the very definition of "difference" also weigh in against a copycat killer. They are NOT copying!


c.d., you said above that we couldn't designate rage as Jack's motivating factor. But I would disagree on two fronts. First doesn't it have to be factorS. Such killings must have complicated and overdetermined motivation. That being said, I think rage has to be one of the motives. Call it ritual, political, sexual, what you will, I would say it has to be rage too. For me, JTR butcherings are the embodiment of rage. The interesting question, that has been discussed on recent threads, seems to be, from whence the rage?

[paul emmett]

So maybe we should go for the only other simple explanation offered by the combination uteri - kidney - heart? Fisherman

Hi Fisherman,

I just read that Sam went for portability. What were you going for? BlackKat posted some interesting articles recently on the Eastern associations between the kidneys and the womb. I think it's telling that even though the killer of MJK took neither the kidney nor the womb, he did leave them together, and together with a breast under Kelly's head.

[c.d.]

Hi Paul,

Certainly rage has to be an obvious choice. But what if Jack were some whacked out religious fanatic? Maybe in his mind he was punishing them for their sins. Maybe he thought that might get them into heaven despite their evil ways. Is that far fetched? Sure. But as I stated earlier, we simply don't know. If we want to go with rage, that would seem as good a motivating factor as any and probably better than most. But lets not make the mistake of saying that we are certain. We're not.

c.d.

[paul emmett]

If we want to go with rage, that would seem as good a motivating factor as any and probably better than most. But lets not make the mistake of saying that we are certain. We're not.c.d.

Hi c.d. OK--if I can add the coda that we are sure of nothing. With JTR AND life. My best friend loves me, tomorrow is a comin', it will snow in Wisconsin again. I've just seen too many discussions here get lost in "we can't say for sure." Perhaps, but I feel almost as sure about the rage as I do about the snow, and I'm in WI. Show the MJK crime scene to 100 folks, ask them what emotion is being expressed, we know who's gonna win THE FAMILY FEUD. Rage! So let's move on and talk about it--perhaps on a different thread.

Paul