Jack had to slip up

[paul emmett]

CHAVA
However, I do NOT buy the fact that of three people, they didn't have one key. I do think that even if the police found the door locked they would have tried to open it from the window. Doesn't take a scientist there.

That missing key to me, is a vital part of who killed MJK - or another woman or whatever you wish to believe. I'm going to go with MJK. I too am disappointed they weren't more detailed with the ashes. I think the clothes were burnt on purpose and as stated earlier by another poster, I think there may have been a link to her killer. (something vital anyway) I think the key was stolen, not misplaced or lost. Was it a total stranger or someone she knew? Looking at the stories is enough for some people to draw a conclusion. My god, how could so many people be that dumb? LOL - It must have been in the water.

Hi, BlackKat.

I do agree. But I don't follow the "looking at the stories. . . " sentence. The ashes thing is intriuging. But might they just be of the clothes that did burn? Then would they possibly be the link to the killer?

[paul emmett]

To refresh, Barnett and Mary had used the window access together, while Barnett lived there, so we are talking about at least two weeks likely. Had McCarthy a key, as Sam points out, he would not have himself forced the door open at 1:30. But McCarthy did know of the window access that the couple used, he said so, so you make make your own conclusions.

Hi, Michael.

Doesn't the conclusion, then, almost have to be that the door had been locked with a key?

Again, though, I thought that the windows were broken on the day Barnett moved out, right? 10/30?


Good evening

[Sam Flynn]

Honest, Sam, I never imagined BOTH Kelly and Barnett losing their keys--and McCarthy? I know you won't agree, but I'd call that an anomaly.

Kellly and Barnett shared a key. McCarthy may have had a spare key - he may not - but might not have been able to find it. What is so "anomalous" about that, pray?

[Sam Flynn]

Doesn't the conclusion, then, almost have to be that the door had been locked with a key?

No. Because it wasn't.

Again, though, I thought that the windows were broken on the day Barnett moved out, right?

They weren't, Paul.

[paul emmett]

Kellly and Barnett shared a key. McCarthy may have had a spare key - he may not - but might not have been able to find it. What is so "anomalous" about that, pray?

Sam, I had always thought there was only one key between Barnett and Kelly until you said in the lines I quoted from post#53 that Barnett and Kelly lost thier keys!

Regarding your last post, I know you feel the door was not locked by a key. I respect that, but I don't agree with it. I was just telling Michael that that was for me the most logical conclusion to be drawn from HIS assertions that McCarthy knew of the missing key and the window trick.

Regarding the broken window, Paley says it--actually "they"-- was broken on the day of their break-up fight. I thought I had heard it elsewhere, but I'm not going to the wall for that.

[perrymason]

Hi again,

Paul, like Sam said.... . Thats the cruz with the key issue, there is a period of weeks that it was lost, while Barnett was a resident, and McCarthy knew of this as he stated when interviewed, I would think prior to the forced entry. Had McCarthy a key...it would have been presented. And since it was more than a week that they had used the pane entry, we can surmise they probably could'nt buy one...or used the money elsewhere....glug, glug...

Its not unthinkable the forced entry was dramatized...this was very possibly the first lock down of a crime scene pending forensic examination of its kind anywhere, the room itself provided that opportunity. For emphasis, to dramatize the locked room dilemma nature of the situation, they entered forcibly. As I said earlier, I could not prove, but do believe the room was entered prior to 1:30pm, but there is just as sound an explanation as needed in the above. My belief is based on some circumstantial factors that we can cover in another thread sometime.

Its impossible to say that that no-one knew, before the forced entry, of the pane method, as we know that McCarthy tells the police that very story...in actuality he is the key source for it. Pardon the pun.. And forces the door himself. Its odd, but not necessarily suspicious.

My best regards all...nite.

[paul emmett]

"Key source" Good one, Michael. All I would say is that one person's odd is another person's suspicious. Do we have a source for when the window panes were broken? All I could find was Paley, and, as I said, he says Fight Night. NIGHT

[Blackkat]

Stories = mah' bad - reports from those involved, or around.

[paul emmett]

Hello,

About the broken window. Paley did say that the panes were broken during the breakup fight, and he documented Venturney and the TIMES. At the Inquest Ven. said, "a few weeks ago." TIMES 11/10/88 said Bowyer said that he knew the window had been broken during their quarrel. Not QuarrelS. That's what I found, although I do recall someone besides Paley contrasting the window being broken at the breakup with the key being lost "some time ago."

Not such a deal BlackKat: reports from those around seem all too frequently to be stories.

[Chava]

Blackkat, thanks for acknowledging me, but I didn't write the quote you reference above.


We know Kelly was in the habit of bringing tricks back to her room. She's seen with Blotchy-Face around midnight going in there. As has been noted above, Cox who saw her with BF noted that she saw her go in and bang the door, but did not note that she saw her reach through the window to open it. And with respect I think she would have, because it was unusual. If she notes the door-bang, then she'd note the reach-in I think.

[paul emmett]

We know Kelly was in the habit of bringing tricks back to her room. She's seen with Blotchy-Face around midnight going in there. As has been noted above, Cox who saw her with BF noted that she saw her go in and bang the door, but did not note that she saw her reach through the window to open it. And with respect I think she would have, because it was unusual. If she notes the door-bang, then she'd note the reach-in I think.

Hi, Chava.

While I think I'm on your side here, there have been debates before about MJK being in the habit of bringing back tricks, and Blotchy being a trick. What must he have been into with all her singing? What? 75 minutes of a Mother song? Not that she had to be singing when Cox, wasn't there, but this is one of the many things about that night which strikes me as Huh!

Earlier CitizenX thought that the banging door suggested that the door had been left off the latch. What is your take on it?

[Ben]

Earlier CitizenX thought that the banging door suggested that the door had been left off the latch. What is your take on it?

On the latch you mean, Paul, surely?

If it was off the latch, Mary Cox would almost certainly have recalled the jiggery-pokery with the window, but nothing along those lines were alluded to.

[paul emmett]

Sorry, Ben. I know you explained all this to me yesterday, but the earlier post about Cox did say that the banging door implied off the latch. Let's see if I got it. To keep the door from bolting, you put it on the latch, right? Seems like "off" sounds better, but if you go out with it on the latch it remains open, unbolted. If you have it off the latch, it is bolted when you are inside, and will bolt automatically when you leave. If you use a key--from the outside, I take it--then you can't just reach in and unbolt it. Right?

Ok, riddle me this. Since some of the papers said Bowyer looked through the keyhole and found that the key was missing, I take it people used to leave their keys in the door when inside. Why? To impede another incoming key??

I have just one more. What do you make of the apparent deiscrepancy between your feeling that a "hypotheical stranger" could pass by, notice the broken window, and figure out the window trick, and others feeling that over the course of three hours not one policeman could make the same deduction?

[Ben]

Hi Paul,

What do you make of the apparent deiscrepancy between your feeling that a "hypotheical stranger" could pass by, notice the broken window, and figure out the window trick, and others' feeling that over the course of three hours not one policeman could make the same deduction?

The difference here is that the police had no obvious incentive to explore alternative methods of entry, and they certainly didn't need to be quiet about it. Naturally, the killer couldn't do a "Here's Johnny!" job on it, and expect Lewis et al to remain put, but then I don't think he used the window trick either. More likely, he simply pushed open the "latched" door.

[paul emmett]

More likely, he simply pushed open the "latched" door.

Hi, Ben.

I know this is where we started yesterday: disagreeing about MJK leaving her door open, or not. So we'll just disagree, but was I correct about the doors? And DID they leave the key in the door typically? Thanks