The posing of the body

[FrankO]

That would imply that this was, and the killer thought it was, the most secure setting he has been in to-date, and the one that offered him the most free time.

Hi Mike,

Suppose for a silly moment that you were forced to do what was done to MJK. Would you wish to do that out in the streets of a densely populated city area or rather somewhere indoors?

Obviously, the important difference between the crime scene in Miller’s Court and the others was that nobody walking into the court would see the Ripper or his victim. There’s no chance he wouldn’t be seen if anybody would have walked or looked into the backyard of 29 Hanbury Street, Mitre Square or Buck’s Row (from around the school) while he was busy. It’s as simple as that.

So, as long as he wouldn’t attract attention to MJK’s room and nobody would visit MJK or check up on her, it doesn’t matter how few or many escape routes he had. If he killed her during the nightly hours of lull, which seems to have been the case, then he wouldn’t have had much to fear.

The fact that he had more time doesn’t mean that he stayed in her room for hours, if even one, nor that he didn’t work fast this time.

Oh, and the fact that MJK's breast and uterus were found under her head probably had as much to do with extra time as the piece of intestine that was placed between Eddowes' body and left arm.

All the best, Mike.
Frank

[The Good Michael]

Why would one get such an inkling, though, Mike?

I don't know why. Simply pointing out that if one HAD an inkling, one could have possibly seen what was going on via the blaze. I think no one had an inkling of course.

Cheers,

Mike

[perrymason]

Hello all,

Despite the thinking Mike, there is no evidence that any kind of fire existed on that night after 1:30am. There is physical evidence that suggests one was there within the previous 10 -12 hours pretty safely though. Since the clothing thrown in the fire was not completely consumed, which it would be leaving no fabric left at all if a large fire, its a safe assumption. The spout could have literally been melted off at any time...no-one was asked directly about the condition of that kettle prior to that night.

Frank.....I think you made my point while asking these questions...."Suppose for a silly moment that you were forced to do what was done to MJK. Would you wish to do that out in the streets of a densely populated city area or rather somewhere indoors?".....and "So, as long as he wouldn’t attract attention to MJK’s room and nobody would visit MJK or check up on her, it doesn’t matter how few or many escape routes he had. If he killed her during the nightly hours of lull, which seems to have been the case, then he wouldn’t have had much to fear."

On the first question, why would I imagine that Jack the Ripper was forced to commit any murder...and for that matter why would I assume that he didnt kill who he wanted to when and where he wanted to before Millers court? What evidence suggests that is a wise course? And why would I assume that he felt change was in order? Isnt he batting 1000%?

On the second question, isnt Jack the Ripper the killer that ONLY kills during the nightly hours of lull before room 13? Arent all the killings previous to Marys needlessly tense and precarious situations during the calm and quiet hours? Does he alter his pattern or times though to take control of that situation? Nope.

Maybe thats what he likes, and being indoors surrounded by walls and closed in by a door, with only a single accessway in or out might make his skin crawl with claustrophobia. We dont know.

So no-one knows that outdoors and quickly wasnt his preference or perhaps his choice.

Everybody sees moving indoors into a small room with a single exit as calming to a killer who they believe has killed 4 women already and is the subject of the largest manhunt in London's history..to a killer who only kills with a specific mile of the East End, to a killer who will inevitably have had to leave Millers Court through that single exit bloodstained.

I think its equally possible that space meant freedom, and confined space meant capture....think about it.

Best regards.

[FrankO]

On the first question, why would I imagine that Jack the Ripper was forced to commit any murder...

Mike, as to that first question, where did I say the Ripper was forced to do anything? I posed that question just for the sake of argument and the Ripper has nothing to do it. I was just asking what you would do in a certain situation.

...and for that matter why would I assume that he didnt kill who he wanted to when and where he wanted to before Millers court?

Where did I say or suggest otherwise?

And why would I assume that he felt change was in order?

For the 4th or 5th time (I’ve lost count), I have offered you a plausible reason for why he may have chosen to try and find a victim he could kill indoors. And I’ve acknowledged already that there is no real evidence for that other than circumstantial. But even if he didn’t make the choice of trying to find someone like MJK with a room of her own, it’s perfectly feasible that he walked into her the very same way he encountered those other women.

On the second question, isnt Jack the Ripper the killer that ONLY kills during the nightly hours of lull before room 13? Arent all the killings previous to Marys needlessly tense and precarious situations during the calm and quiet hours? Does he alter his pattern or times though to take control of that situation? Nope.

You've lost me here, I'm afraid.

...to a killer who will inevitably have had to leave Millers Court through that single exit bloodstained.

Minor point perhaps, but I doubt that he was bloodstained. He had ample time and means to clean himself in MJK’s room.

I think its equally possible that space meant freedom, and confined space meant capture....think about it.

I have thought about it, Mike, and believe a confined space would offer maximum satisfaction of his very driving force. He would have more time and could focus on what he came for, instead of having to divide his attention between surroundings and what he was doing.

All the best,
Frank

[perrymason]

Frank the concise reply is that you have provided explanations for your findings which are your opinions or interpretations of the evidence available. Like a "plausible" reason why Jack would move indoors.

4 deaths happened in 5 weeks, and it had been 5 weeks since the last murder. If anything, he had waited long enough to kill safely in the streets again...in my opinion, and there would be no need to abandon his very effective methods and stages, and his preferred target profile...older, and homeless.

There is no need for a venue change at that time, there is no need for a victim profile change at that time, and there is no need to discard his 100% successful "pick-ups, subdue and then use the knife" strategies. I say 100% because we have no failed attempts on record.

Thats the point that was lost on you.

He has dealt with fear, anxiety, lack of privacy, threat of capture in open air, publicly accessed venues...and always escaped unseen, never left an excised organ behind, and seems to have left the scene and disappeared after he had finished doing what he wanted. he is not chased or scared off from any....unless you want to consider Liz Stride a realistic Ripper "miss"...which is not sustainable by the evidence. he continued to kill outdoors even when his very first kill may have been incomplete due to the fact he could be interrupted. Does kill 2 therefore move indoors to prevent such occurrences? No...he just moves to the back of the house with the next victim rather than in the street, and in the opinion of the Coroner, accessed and took what he targetted. Efficiently I might add. But he stays outdoors.

I think when a killer is thought to have killed 80% of the time outdoors in similar locations, with similar victim profiles and similar crime characteristics....you have an MO. Whether you want to toss it away and then add Mary is up to you, but its not the result of following evidence to a logical conclusion. Its guessing.

I guess theres no shame in guessing, because that is the essence of the Canonical Group, and almost all the contemporary investigators did...and some attached suspect names.

Best regards Frank, all.

[FrankO]

Hi Michael,

I’m guessing that the best thing to do now is to say that your guess is as good & ‘plausible’ as mine and we’ll leave it at that, ‘cos it’s clear we just aint gonna agree. Which is fine, BTW.

Cheers,
Frank

[Sam Flynn]

Like a "plausible" reason why Jack would move indoors.

What is the "plausible" reason for him killing on an open street in the dark on one occasion, and in a back yard at daybreak on another? Could it have been that the victim, and the opportunity, led him there?

[perrymason]

What is the "plausible" reason for him killing on an open street in the dark on one occasion, and in a back yard at daybreak on another? Could it have been that the victim, and the opportunity, led him there?

Or.... could it be that he liked killing like that, that he liked putting on his gloves and coat and just strolling late at night...so quiet and yet so debased a night crowd...picking up strange women on the street, poor and likely weak, middle aged, he can always can find one that age still looking for a gent in the middle of the night. Lots of dark spots too......so safe that he can kill a women and "operate" on her right on the spot, even extracting and taking thinks from inside. If he just wanted a trophy he could have cut off their fingers, or their hair,...the only clothing he does take, he discards.

I do agree with you Frank...no harm in diffent views at all, and I enjoy and absorb your points of view with interest.

Best regards.

[The Good Michael]

Michael,

Don't you think the differences between times and locations among are at least as different as Kelly's murder was from the others? All are different, and the differences are as vast or the similarities as near as one wants them to be. What everything must come down to is if one wants to believe there were one, two, or several mutilating, organ snatching killers working at roughly the same time. This is what is expected of us then?

Cheers,

Mike

[Jane Welland]

It could work, but only if JTR was part of a conspiracy, and not a demented lone serial killer. Other than that, the odds would seem to be against it.

Jane x

[perrymason]

Michael,

Don't you think the differences between times and locations among are at least as different as Kelly's murder was from the others? All are different, and the differences are as vast or the similarities as near as one wants them to be. What everything must come down to is if one wants to believe there were one, two, or several mutilating, organ snatching killers working at roughly the same time. This is what is expected of us then?

Cheers,

Mike

Hi Mike,

The times dont bother me much to be honest, I see the killer as likely to kill after midnight and before 6am, and on Friday, Saturday or Sunday.

I dont expect anyone to buy into the idea that Jack killed only some of the Canonicals after a few years here, but I do think its important that the perspective is discussed. And I dont believe that the Canonical Group is founded on anything remotely like sound or solid evidence.

As Jane suggested, and welcome Jane, there may be some reasons for the changes we see...it may be 2 killers alternating kills. Or it may be that even and ordinary murder took on sinister tone due to the known killer at large, maybe there were 3 separate and unrelated killers, the man that kills Polly and Annie...the man that killed Liz, including possibly Kidney if he was the man seen by James Brown at 12:45am,....and the final murder where location, victim profile, initial attack methodology, established organ preferences and specificity and functionality of the incisions all are changed from the actions recorded in the deaths of victims 1,2 and 4.

Which were remarkably similar from start to finish...with increasing activity each successive kill. And new facets each kill,....but with the same fundamental approach.

I know killers kill many different ways, and some just to enjoy the killing itself, and I also know that some kill for specific reasons known only to themselves unless they are caught and confess or are prosecutable, and in their murders the act of murder itself is often swift and brutal. Its soup or salad for them. I think we see a man like the second example who may have killed 3 of the Rippers alledged victims, and within the Canonicals, a man like the first type.

It wouldnt surprise me to find out that Liz Strides killer had a record of violent behavior, maybe even assaults or worse, and as such, was perhaps known to the police. But I think he was someone that could kill easily.

A man that would then start cutting into the victim to access and extract her uterus is something darker than he was.

Best regards Mike, Jane.

[Lozle]

I know I'm back tracking a bit, but earlier people were discussing the circluar shape on Mary Kelly's right leg. Quite understandably, it could be an occurance left by the camera lens, or perhaps a circular incinsion the killer left... However, I have a theoy - well, two theories - that the circular phenomenon could either be a bite mark OR a ladder in her stockings. Personally, I'm leaning towards the possibility of it being a ladder in her clothing as "ladies of the night" did not earn a vast fortune, therefore, could not replace certain items continuously. But also, in the full image of her, you can see the circular image orientating more to the left side of her right leg, but in the picture taken closely from the right, you can see it very clearly orientating more to the right side of her right leg. To me, I thought could it be 2seperate tears in her stockings? This would correlate with tears occuring whilst putting them on or wear-and-tear. I'd be interested to hear what other people's opinions are of either of my 2theories, whether conflicting or not.

[Lozle]

Also, I began studying the map of Whitechapel because each victim was killed elsewhere to where the body was found - except Mary Kelly. Well, I began wondering why would they be placed in a specific area. Not only on the crime scene images are they turned towards a gutter or a limb of the victim placed "reaching" into the gutter, but also I thought JTR moved them to a certain area for a reason. So I got an old map of Whitechapel and connected each murder. To begin with, the murders appear in a "Z" shapde. However, if you draw a line to each murder scene and then connect each murder scene with a line to "George Yard" you will get a image resembling 2pyramids. Thus makes me believe that the crime scenes were staged, but the mutilation on Mary Kelly originated from a personal level. JTR mutilated Mary Kelly in such a way that screams anger on a more personal level than the other 4murders.

[perrymason]

Also, I began studying the map of Whitechapel because each victim was killed elsewhere to where the body was found - except Mary Kelly. Well, I began wondering why would they be placed in a specific area. Not only on the crime scene images are they turned towards a gutter or a limb of the victim placed "reaching" into the gutter, but also I thought JTR moved them to a certain area for a reason. So I got an old map of Whitechapel and connected each murder. To begin with, the murders appear in a "Z" shapde. However, if you draw a line to each murder scene and then connect each murder scene with a line to "George Yard" you will get a image resembling 2pyramids. Thus makes me believe that the crime scenes were staged, but the mutilation on Mary Kelly originated from a personal level. JTR mutilated Mary Kelly in such a way that screams anger on a more personal level than the other 4murders.

Hi Lozle,

One thing thats wrong with the above is the idea that any of the Canonicals were killed anywhere but where they were found. Although you will note some theories in print that suggest perhaps victims were deposited at the locations due to the absence of large blood pools underneath them...but.... Polly's back was soaked in blood, Annie almost certainly died where she has her throat cut based on the arterial spray on the wall on that yards fence, Liz was certainly killed exactly where she was killed, and there is nothing in Kates murder that would neccesitate her having been killed elsewhere. And, as you noted Mary.

In fact they almost certainly all died where they were attacked.

All the best

[Lozle]

Thank you, Perry Mason, I appreciate what you said and I have taken your comment into account. Very informative, so thank you again.

However, I still find it hard to believe that the placing of the bodies and the 2 calculated pyramids as a coincidence. Perhaps JTR lured them to certain areas if evidence suggest they were killed where they were found? I find it difficult to believe that all 5victims would scatter themselves around Whitechapel, quite a distance apart, at the time ladies of their trade were being murdered. I would have thought they would try to cluster together on the streets, as its human instict there is safety in numbers - unless a "client" took them somewhere. Unfortunately there will never be any proof that JTR took them somewhere confined and specific and then murdered them, but, it's a theory, probably a flawed one.

In relation to Elizabeth Stride, I believe the excess of blood - in comparison to the other murders - found could be the possibility that JTR was disturbed that night and got careless. He - or she (unlikely, but lets keep an open mind) - then went on to murder Catherine that same night (which we are all aware of, I'm sure) but proceeded to take 2 of her organs, whereas the other victims - with the exception of Mary Jane Kelly - registered only one organ being removed... Could JTR have "made up" on the "missing out" of Elizabeth? As JTR didn't have chance to finish their work.

Furthermore, I still feel each murder was staged, crime scene and choice of crime scene were all planned. JTR was very consistent and controlled in his killings and mutilations except for Mary Jane Kelly, where the murder and mutilation appears frenzied. To me, I don't know about anyone else, but I believe Polly, Annie, Elizabeth and Catherine were all part of a message and a game he was playing. The placing or taking the victims to the murder scene at certain areas to make up the majority of 2pyramids. Mary Jane Kelly's murder scene finished the pyramid - like the end of his "work" - and he did a HUGE number on her - his masterpiece -. Which says, to me, the murders were on a personal level, focusing mainly on Mary Jane Kelly.

My focusing on the Pyramids is due to knowledge acquired - though limited - on the Freemason Brotherhood. By looking into Freemason emblems and symbols you can see there is more than a strong link with pyramids - the eye of the pyramid - there.

Also, my theory on Liz - not being mutilated / being disturbed / unable to finsih his "work" - is very similar to that in the Message Boards for Elizabeth Stride - A Possible Reason Why Jack didn't Mutilate Liz. If you are conflicted in what i've said, maybe scanning over some things said there may help to understand what I was saying more clearly. such things as rituals - though must've been short to avoid witnesses - before the mutilation. If disturbed mid-way, could not go on.

I'm interested in anyone's opinions. Thank you again Perry Mason.