The posing of the body

[perrymason]

I suppose thread wise all that need be said is that he did move her body to the middle of the bed, he did perform the bizarre ritual acts including organ placements, and he did put her left arm back across the chasm he made of her midsection.

Posing...arranging...moving....adjusting,
placing....altering.....affecting......whatever floats your boat. It happened.

Dismiss it before knowing if it means something.. or not, the answer is in the eye of the beholder.

The question is solvable but the intentions and the rationale for the actions are not clear at this point.

Best regards

[perrymason]

Point being....posing is in essence just "moving or altering" and that is really beyond argument in the case in room 13. She had parts of her moved about, and placed.

Why is the question. Many think for no reason at all. I dont personally. I believe many placements were to create an illusion or representation of acts seen or read about earlier that Fall. And that they happened so as to redirect the investigators.

Best regards

[The Good Michael]

To pose 1. To place (a model, for example) in a specific position.

The key is 'Specific'. That means an intentional positioning of the body. It also implies an effect is meant to be made. That is not proved by your arguments. It certainly doesn't mean just moving a body either.

Mike

[FrankO]

Working, homeless, middle aged street whores. Since the only woman some feel he killed that is under 30 is Mary and she had defense wounds, seems he should have stuck with middle-aged women and using the knife only after they are subdued and semi conscious at best.

Hi Mike,

The fact that MJK had defence wounds, although in my opinion those not including the ones on her arms, may very well just be a result of the fact that he attacked her while she was already lying down, instead of standing in front of him at arms’ length, like in the other cases.

Annies killer.. it is felt by at least 2 senior medical personnel, killed her so he could cut her open and take her uterus, Since that's what he did, I guess that's what that killer wanted too.

Again, you’re forgetting part of Chapman’s belly wall. Anyway, I’m obviously not saying that Chapman’s killer didn’t want to do what he did to her. The Ripper was an opportunistic killer. I’m saying that he might have done more, if he had more time. Just to prolong his stay and make the best of the opportunity he was offered, intensifying the thrill it gave him.

What would you think an adolescent bloke would do if he had 5 minutes alone with his girlfriend before he had to say goodbye for the night to her, outside of her house? And what do you think he would do if he had an evening, or even an hour, alone with her at his or her parents’ home?

Marys killer took flesh off her right thigh so he could extract her heart? He scored her face every which way so he could mutilate her abdomen?

Obviously not, don’t be ridiculous. If it was the Ripper who did for MJK, I imagine he stripped her thighs and cut her arms and face as part of her depersonalisation or annihilation, as an expression of the rage and perhaps fear he felt. Perhaps it was a result of a very morbid form of exploration. And perhaps he also did it because he could, now that he had time to stay with the body and enjoy the moment, prolong the thrill. Like I said, Jack the Ripper sure was an opportunist.

He places her kidneys and uterus and a breast under her head, cause they were in his way?

Why did he place the piece of colon between Eddowes’ left side and arm? Why did he cut off specifically that part? He obviously wanted to cut out those organs, to empty MJK’s abdominal cavity. So he had to put them somewhere, didn’t he? Maybe he put them under the pillow for some special reason only known to himself (prop up her head, surprise, whatever), maybe he cut them out and put them there before he moved her. Who knows?

I think the big mistake is imaging that the killer of Annie needed or required anything other than what he did with her.....and thats due, in my opinion, to a subconscious link at least to a Canonical Group theory.

If you’d read back my posts, you’d find that I hardly ever use the term Canonical Group and that’s because, in fact, I quite dislike that name. To me, it's no more than a referral to those 5 victims in one go. So, I don’t need any specific victim, just like I don’t have a suspect to pursue.

If Jack only killed Polly and Kate, would you say that it shows us he wanted or required more cutting time? Nope....Marys killer did though. If Jack killed Polly, Annie and Kate, where is the indication he felt indoors was a better venue, and that he was unsatisfied with his outdoor adventures? There isnt any.

Once more, I already acknowledged that there isn’t any real evidence, so there’s no need to, again, ask this question. I think I offered a plausible reason for why he might have actually chosen to look for a victim he could kill indoors. But, apparently, that went unnoticed by you again. And maybe he just ended up in that room because he was posing as a punter, just like with the other victims.

Furthermore, isn’t it possible that, because he knew he had to make the best of what time opportunity allowed him, with his outside murders he only focused on his very first and foremost interest, i.d. the abdominal and vaginal area?

But including Liz as one of his gives you that anomaly as well.

I’m inclined to believe Stride wasn’t a Ripper victim, so there you go.

Why would I ruin very good evidence of a specific type of fiend just so I can explain other deaths away?

I don’t think I ruin any evidence if I were to include MJK. Quite frankly, I’m not 100% sure about her being a Ripper victim, but that’s not due to all the mutilations she suffered.

All the best, Mike.
Frank

[The Good Michael]

What would you think an adolescent bloke would do if he had 5 minutes alone with his girlfriend before he had to say goodbye for the night to her, outside of her house? And what do you think he would do if he had an evening, or even an hour, alone with her at his or her parents’ home?

Frank,

That parallels my pornography example, but the same things can be said for any vice given extra time for creativity and experimentation.

Cheers,

Mike

[FrankO]

Quite so, Mike. But it doesn't only apply to crime and vice, it's true for 'normal' everyday life as well. For instance, if I need a new television set or whatever and I have limited time to buy one, I will only go to the department store to look for a good set, buy that and then leave. If, however, I've got some time on my hands I might use the opportunity to look for other things as well, try them out and maybe even buy them.

Cheers Mike,
Frank

[perrymason]

Hi Guys,

Im curious about the "time to kill" premise that you Frank and Mike are putting forward. That to me seems to indicate your opinion is that the killer in room 13 had leisure time to expend and thats why we see Marys right thigh with all biological material removed. Or Marys breast and uterus under her head.

That would imply that this was, and the killer thought it was, the most secure setting he has been in to-date, and the one that offered him the most free time.

Since this murder places him in perhaps the position of greatest risk of all his alleged murders,...in that he has his back to the only avenues in or out of the room, and there is a single narrow 20 plus foot archway that could be blockaded at either end to trap him, I sure dont agree. If someone saw him through the window he could have been trapped already without knowing it.

And if seen, he has only those same avenues and that same archway as his only escape access.

Whether the earlier sites were perfectly set up for easy escape is questionable, but the only sites that have only one viable means of egress are Dutfields Yard and Millers Court. Bucks Row was open at both ends of the street, and if forced to, he could have scaled fences adjacent to the backyard at Berner Street...allowing him to escape onto a different street. Even though 2 of Mitres lanes were accessed by different policemen just missing each other, there was the 3rd carriageway...and to my mind his most likely exit.

He is in no less of a hurry in Millers Court, arguably due to his blind spots, he is in a more precarious spot than ever before, and I personally dont see that situation translating in his mind to "leisure time".

He obviously didnt do what he did to Polly and Kate, which is subdue them before even using a knife and open their abdomens right after the throat cut....and since he is behaving in a way that even allows for you to even suggest leisurely dissection, perhaps the answer you get has to do with how many variants are acceptable to you in this new iteration of Jack....which is what this is if Jack killed her.

I can see some changes as reasonable but not totally abandoning earlier methodology and practices.

Polly to Annie to Kate has consistency, a steady unaltered attack sequence, and new acts or innovations.

Best regards

[Sam Flynn]

Since this murder places him in perhaps the position of greatest risk of all his alleged murders

I disagree, Mike. That accolade has to belong to the back-yard of 29 Hanbury Street, with its windows - and those of the adjoining properties - rendering him potentially visible to up to 20 or more people. Any one of them could have opened their blinds to the dawn and glanced out quite casually, and he'd have been caught red-handed.

If someone saw him through the window...

...at around 3-4 in the morning, under foul weather conditions, I don't think that was a particularly likely proposition.

[perrymason]

1. I disagree, Mike. That accolade has to belong to the back-yard of 29 Hanbury Street, with its windows - and those of the adjoining properties - rendering him potentially visible to up to 20 or more people. Any one of them could have opened their blinds to the dawn and glanced out quite casually, and he'd have been caught red-handed

2.....at around 3-4 in the morning, under foul weather conditions, I don't think that was a particularly likely proposition.

Hi Sam,

As a rebuttal, on Point 1, regardless of the number of viewpoints available to casual onlookers had they looked out at that minute, he had a fenced yard that could be grabbed at the top by Cadosche....so likely the killer as well. Since he is evidently strong enough to subdue the women without appreciable noise, scaling any of 3 fences if faced with capture isnt Olympic scale athletics. The point is of course that they were in fact options. There were the 2 windows and the door leading to a courtyard and to a single exit from Millers Court, and most of his time in the room was with his back to the only exits of the room.

On 2, lets not forget Mary Ann Cox didnt come in for the night until 3am, 1-1/2 hours after Marys room went dark and quiet.

Cheers Sam

[jason_c]

Hi Sam,

As a rebuttal, on Point 1, regardless of the number of viewpoints available to casual onlookers had they looked out at that minute, he had a fenced yard that could be grabbed at the top by Cadosche....so likely the killer as well. Since he is evidently strong enough to subdue the women without appreciable noise, scaling any of 3 fences if faced with capture isnt Olympic scale athletics. The point is of course that they were in fact options. There were the 2 windows and the door leading to a courtyard and to a single exit from Millers Court, and most of his time in the room was with his back to the only exits of the room.

On 2, lets not forget Mary Ann Cox didnt come in for the night until 3am, 1-1/2 hours after Marys room went dark and quiet.

Cheers Sam

Apologies if going off topic.

At Millers Court he had the advantage of a dark night. If anyone had a good view through the window of Kelly's room I doubt they would have confronted her killer. More likely a sickening, gut churning reaction or a scream. JtR then runs outside, disappearing into the dark back streets. He would be unable to disappear quite so easily at Hanbury Street.

If i were a neighbour, I would think twice before peering into a window of a known prostitute. The voyeur would likely get a stream of obscenities from Kelly.

[Sam Flynn]

Since he is evidently strong enough to subdue the women without appreciable noise, scaling any of 3 fences if faced with capture isnt Olympic scale athletics.

The fragility of the fences - not to mention the victim - aside, Mike, where was he going to go then?

The point is of course that they were in fact options.

If so, it was just as well - for, at Hanbury Street with daylight breaking, he'd have needed them.

There were the 2 windows and the door leading to a courtyard and to a single exit from Millers Court, and most of his time in the room was with his back to the only exits of the room.

But who was going to enter, or even look in, at 3-4AM on a morning of foul weather?

On 2, lets not forget Mary Ann Cox didnt come in for the night until 3am, 1-1/2 hours after Marys room went dark and quiet.

Was she likely to have sidled up to Kelly's window, pull aside the coat/curtains, and actually peek inside?

As I said, all that was required at Hanbury Street was for someone at 29 or the neighbouring properties to open their blinds and look out. In Kelly's case, by contrast, one would need someone just to happen by at a god-forsaken hour on a rainy morning, dog-leg around to where Kelly's windows were, remove some obstacles from one of said windows, and actively look in. Taking that into consideration, 13 Miller's Court begins to look like the safest murder site of them all.

[perrymason]

As I said, all that was required at Hanbury Street was for someone at 29 or the neighbouring properties to open their blinds and look out. In Kelly's case, by contrast, one would need someone just to happen by at a god-forsaken hour on a rainy morning, dog-leg around to where Kelly's windows were, remove some obstacles from one of said windows, and actively look in. Taking that into consideration, 13 Miller's Court begins to look like the safest murder site of them all.

Hi Sam,

Are you saying that Millers Court was the safest location because of the limitations to viewing the site by passers by, or by the easy access to an exit once out of the room?

Because as I said, the killing itself isnt the sole issue, getting in and out is also part of the evenings events, and in any "Ripper" site, options for escape had to be as plentiful as possible while still being few enough so as to manage keeping an eye on the avenues in case of witness ingress. Particularly in Mitre Square.

Being seen is one thing.....its quite possible that Jack the Ripper was seen just before killing a woman, but being caught is what Im talking about,...and Millers Court and Dutfields Yard have a commonality aside from their weak "case" for being Ripper victims locations....one way for him to enter the scene, 1 way to leave it.

I think locking the door behind him maybe speaks to that issue. Enhancing his getaway time.

Cheers again Gareth

[Sam Flynn]

Are you saying that Millers Court was the safest location because of the limitations to viewing the site by passers by

I am, Mike - that, combined with the early hour and the bad weather when it was used as a killing field.

or by the easy access to an exit once out of the room?

Clearly not the latter - when considered at "peak" times of day, that is, which wasn't the case when Kelly was attacked. At 3 or 4 (-ish) in the morning, all the killer would have to do to establish whether the coast was clear was to peek through the window, listen at the door, peep through the keyhole, open the door slightly to look outside, pause and listen at the arched entrance to the Court, perhaps peek around the archway into Dorset Street... and then he was away, while it was still dark. Piece of cake.

[The Good Michael]

To be fair here, if there was a blazing fire going, and we think there was, it would have been easy to look into Kelly's room and see what was going on if one had an inkling to. I suggest that this means the interior of the court was relatively devoid of activity. We know that the cry of murder didn't exactly get people all excited. The court sounds like it was a dull enough place that there weren't going to be many window peepers about at those hours. Half (or more) of the witnesses seem to have been in their cups as well. All in all, it may have been hard to find a more disinterested lot than those at Miller's Court, and especially after 2:00 am. Plenty of time for experimentation, posing of the body being a possibility as an impromptu action brought on by solitude and time.

Cheers,

Mike

[Sam Flynn]

To be fair here, if there was a blazing fire going, and we think there was, it would have been easy to look into Kelly's room and see what was going on if one had an inkling to.

Why would one get such an inkling, though, Mike? Even then, the "ease" with which one might have looked into the room would have been somewhat compromised, given that there was (by all accounts) a stuffed window pane - with jagged edges - and a set of improvised curtains in the way.

Your observations that the Court wasn't a hive of activity at that time of the morning, and of the indifference, tiredness and/or drunkenness of its residents, are quite correct, of course.