The posing of the body

[Archaic]

Jack the ''I Wanna Be In Pictures'' Ripper

. This is jacks first indoor kill, he now has total privacy. He may well have pined to dissect and fidget with the innerds of his past kills, but this option was'nt available to him on the street.

This is an excellent topic fo a new thread; thanks! Here's my personal take on it: I agree with what several of you have said, including Daveshredder whom I quoted above. Besides the escalation of his own drives, I think Jack got quite a kick from 'upping the shock value' of his murders- which is also why he killed them & left them in public where he knew they would quickly be found.

But the murder of Mary Kelly gave him a new opportunity for both 'actions' and 'spectacle'. During this greater window of time in which to indulge his whims & experiment, Jack was clearly anticipating the utter HORROR which awaited those who found her... knowing it would also be experienced by all those who investigated the scene, by the neighborhood, & by extension everyone everywhere who ever heard or read about it.

In addition to his personal drive to mutilate, his obsession with ''externalizing'' internal body parts, and other potential motives, I think it's important to realize that Jack's grotesque overkill is an incredibly effective way of extending his 'control' of the scene and of intentionally prolonging the duration of the murder event... which in turn intensifies & prolongs the various forms of sick pleasure it gives him.

I also believe that Jack knew full well that with an indoor crime scene of such gruesome magnitude the Police would take PHOTOGRAPHS. They had been greatly criticized for not doing so with the earlier murders. In those cases, their reason was the need to get the appalling street murders cleaned up rather than waiting for daylight.

I believe Jack knew that with an utterly destroyed human body in a private room, the police would realize it was futile to attempt to sketch it or to describe it in words. I'm sure some aspect of the Ripper's grisly mutilations/posing of Mary was inspired by his gleeful knowledge that his 'funny little games' would be preserved for all time in Police Photographs. Jack was right on this count, and I'm sorry to say it has succeeded beyond his wildest dreams.

Well, that's my opinion; I'm curious to hear what the rest of you think. Best regards, Archaic

[perrymason]

I think for those who feel the room should have been "festooned" with organs you should read Dew's account of his first view of the room.

I agree with a lot of what you suggest Sam, not all placements as it were are in what can be described as unnatural positions considering his ongoing surgery,...but as you rightfully point out, why the items are under the head is inexplicable at this point. Or why those items.

I believe they may be used as a simple device to elevate her head, which would mean the position of her head was of some importance to him,..which may indicate the direction her face is pointing was intentional as well.

You may not agree with me on this point, but I think you may see some merit in this......she is left reclining on a bed facing an anticipated guests arrival later that night. I think someone may have come to the room after the killer left. Lets not forget that Mary Ann's testimony includes footsteps on occasion until almost 6am. As I recall that's after Liz Prater has gone for some hair of the dog.

Just for a what if.....what if Barnett or Fleming had been told by someone that Mary had to be killed, silenced, removed... and whomever of them is told to do that, refuses. When the one that was asked arrives that night for some late night canoodling, he finds Mary in a pose like he'd expect....but in a condition he would not. Would someone like that fear retribution for any statement he makes that might reveal the killer?

Just wondering if in some way, if 2 people were involved....one "albeit after the fact",.. maybe the second is one who finds her but doesn't summon the police, leaving that task to Bowyer and McCarthy later that morning.

Best regards Sam, all.

[Sam Flynn]

I think for those who feel the room should have been "festooned" with organs you should read Dew's account of his first view of the room.

I don't think that Dew's account should be taken as entirely reliable, Mike.

You may not agree with me on this point, but I think you may see some merit in this......she is left reclining on a bed facing an anticipated guests arrival later that night.

A very interesting idea, although I'd question whether any "placement" would have made the sight any more distressing. As far as I can see, the only (minor) element of body-placement would relate to the head or possibly the left arm - although the latter begs the question of why the right arm was allowed to remain on the mattress where it presumably last fell. The rest of the body, including the lower limbs, take on a perfectly "natural" pose, considering what the killer did to it.

[perrymason]

I don't think that Dew's account should be taken as entirely reliable, Mike.A very interesting idea, although I'd question whether any "placement" would have made the sight any more distressing. As far as I can see, the only (minor) element of body-placement would relate to the head or possibly the left arm - although the latter begs the question of why the right arm was allowed to remain on the mattress where it presumably last fell. The rest of the body, including the lower limbs, take on a perfectly "natural" pose, considering what the killer did to it.

I have to head out but I wanted to say I agree with you heartily on Dews account....and Im encouraged when you say "interesting".

My best to you Gareth, catch you on the weekend I hope.

[Daveshredder]

Just thinking in mjk3 isnt that a pillow i can see on the desk, why not use that to prop her head up or even a item of clothing or such..
oh and could someone please tell me were to find Dew's account as I have no idea were to look. cheers

[jason_c]

Any significance that all the organs were left on the bed? Only flesh was placed on the table.

As for the organs being used simply to prop up her head - why not use those great lumps of flesh on the table instead?

[The Good Michael]

oh and could someone please tell me were to find Dew's account as I have no idea were to look. cheers

Here it is: http://www.casebook.org/ripper_media/rps.walterdew.html

Mike

[Jon Guy]

Hello

Doctor Bond only said that the organs were under the head, and not that they propped up the head, which can clearly be seen as not propped up in the photo.

Also, due to the severance of the structures in the neck the head would loll to one side as it was found.

If the Ripper wanted to shock he didn`t take any inspiration from Goulston St and write over the walls, indeed, he didn`t even take the ears or kidney for a bit of "postal" fun when he had the opportunity, and inspiration, if it wasn`t him previously.

[The Good Michael]

Just looking at Kelly: She was turned a little to her left on the bed, her lower body not quite parallel with the sides of the bed. Her upper body is straighter, but her head is cocked completely to her left, and not in a natural way (natural if unsupported by muscles and ligaments however).

There is nothing about this that resembles her being put in a pose as if she were waiting for a customer (in my opinion). I think a strong case can be argued that she was moved around a bit in order for the murderer (let's call him Jack) to gather enough light to do his thing. So movement of the body, repositioning, that sort of thing, okay, but I don't see a good case for actual posing. There may be a fine line between posing and positioning, but the former has to do with display, and the latter with necessity. Looking at the apparent randomness of Jack's "surgery", it would seem that posing the body was something not on his mind, and indeed the details of the butchery seem to have just happened as he explored his options and not to have been the carrying out of some plan.

I vote 'no' for posing.

Mike

[perrymason]

Hi there,

In terms of her overall body position, I would agree Mike.

My belief is that she was on her right side-knees bent when he attacked, she is defeated while in that position, unable to move much due to the position and his body weight, and while cut and semi conscious she is flipped onto her back.....leaving her in the middle of the bed now, legs akimbo, perhaps her left arm hanging out over the bed's left side by the night table. When he finishes the mutilations, he flips her arm back over her.....partly as a gesture of annoyance with it, since it may have been in the way for him while cutting and placing things on the night table.

None of that need be "staging" at all, but when things are deliberately placed where convenience is sacrificed for deliberate, then those are posed or staged or creative elements that are relevant to the killer.

Based on her face, her heart, the fact the eyes were apparently unscathed, the overall pose itself, and the casual nature of it.....it seems to me she was being mocked. Left reclining as a whore on a bed as an artists model. Only this "artist" uses blood, guts and corpses.

Best regards all.

[The Good Michael]

Mike,

I don't see it. Her position looks ideal for carving away at. The randomness (seeming) of it all would indicate no plan to pose. I think he just left her as was after he was finished. She looks to be conveniently placed for access. Just my opinion, obviously.

Cheers,

Mike

[perrymason]

Mike,

I don't see it. Her position looks ideal for carving away at. The randomness (seeming) of it all would indicate no plan to pose. I think he just left her as was after he was finished. She looks to be conveniently placed for access. Just my opinion, obviously.

Cheers,

Mike

Mike,

Again we are not talking about overall body position,...just the posed or staged parts that may be elements of that scene, not it entirely.

What Im suggesting is that the overall body position does not suggest specific posing, as you say, it may be the optimum for his work...but a breast under a head with a uterus are not in anyway a natural positions to find those items in, even during his improvised cut and find somewhere to place style of surgery.

If he adjusted the position of any portion of Marys body with other parts of her, I would think that bears close scrutiny. He did, with her head. Why....did he also turn it to face the windows or door? My opinion on the second is probably, yes. I dont know why he would do that though, .......unless, and this is a reach, he originally had her head elevated to "watch" him while he worked, and turned her face towards the door when he was leaving.

Off for a bit.....hope to see you later Mike.

[The Good Michael]

Mike,

You're talking about putting this here and putting that there. That isn't posing so much as it's adornment and decoration. If you want to say that he had some abstract reason for putting a breast here a bit of flesh there, and a splash of blood over yonder, okay. I don't see any organized plan however, and I don't know what that might mean.

Cheers,

Mike

[Daveshredder]

Was stride or chapman the other girl who had organs around her head ?

[perrymason]

Was stride or chapman the other girl who had organs around her head ?

Hi Dave,

Annie Chapman had her intestines placed above her shoulder, as were some of Kates above hers. One report suggested an additional 2 foot section of Kates colon was "twisted" into her neck wound, but thats probably not accurate and its most likely the section was as reported...between her arm and body.

Hey Mike... a single issue like a head prop is contentious in terms of Jacks characteristics, because other than the likely false claim about Kate's colon section the only placements or adjustments of biological matter that are made on victims 1 through 4 can be set aside as mostly for killer convenience, getting intestines out of the way.

Propping Marys head up after her face was already slashed almost beyond recognition seems a deliberate and yet useless move.

But the fact that it was done at all suggests there is a story here about the killer....we just dont know which language to use yet to understand it.


Best regards