The posing of the body

Mike,

Her head wasn't propped up, and you don't know when her face was mutilated. It could have been the last thing done. In fact, I'd say it was.

Again, decoration isn't posing. As for Chapman, I don't know that the intestines were 'placed'. More likely they were just flung forward and upward because they were in the way. I see no intent with regards to any deliberate placement of organs in Chapman's case. In Kelly's case, it's possible Jack did some cutting and removal and then repositioned the body. If so, we may even have incidental things going on. I think to read too much into things takes us toward a path that encroaches upon gross speculation.

Cheers,

Mike

Hi Mike,

Semantics perhaps, but without question placing objects under her head "props" it up. Maybe you'd prefer another word, but it would be no less accurate.

As per the investigation the attack began in the upper right corner of the bed, she tried to fend off slashes with her left arm, Marys sheets were slashed and it would appear by some arterial spray on the wall that her throat was first cut in that place on the bed. She is then moved from that position to the middle of the bed afterwards, likely unconscious and dying.

I think it is a safe bet that her face received a lot of that damage before she is opened up.

Cheers Mike

[The Good Michael]

Mike,

Her head wasn't propped up, and you don't know when her face was mutilated. It could have been the last thing done. In fact, I'd say it was.

Again, decoration isn't posing. As for Chapman, I don't know that the intestines were 'placed'. More likely they were just flung forward and upward because they were in the way. I see no intent with regards to any deliberate placement of organs in Chapman's case. In Kelly's case, it's possible Jack did some cutting and removal and then repositioned the body. If so, we may even have incidental things going on. I think to read too much into things takes us toward a path that encroaches upon gross speculation.

Cheers,

Mike

Was stride or chapman the other girl who had organs around her head ?

Hi Dave,

Annie Chapman had her intestines placed above her shoulder, as were some of Kates above hers. One report suggested an additional 2 foot section of Kates colon was "twisted" into her neck wound, but thats probably not accurate and its most likely the section was as reported...between her arm and body.

Hey Mike... a single issue like a head prop is contentious in terms of Jacks characteristics, because other than the likely false claim about Kate's colon section the only placements or adjustments of biological matter that are made on victims 1 through 4 can be set aside as mostly for killer convenience, getting intestines out of the way.

Propping Marys head up after her face was already slashed almost beyond recognition seems a deliberate and yet useless move.

But the fact that it was done at all suggests there is a story here about the killer....we just dont know which language to use yet to understand it.


Best regards

[Daveshredder]

Was stride or chapman the other girl who had organs around her head ?

[The Good Michael]

Mike,

You're talking about putting this here and putting that there. That isn't posing so much as it's adornment and decoration. If you want to say that he had some abstract reason for putting a breast here a bit of flesh there, and a splash of blood over yonder, okay. I don't see any organized plan however, and I don't know what that might mean.

Cheers,

Mike

Mike,

I don't see it. Her position looks ideal for carving away at. The randomness (seeming) of it all would indicate no plan to pose. I think he just left her as was after he was finished. She looks to be conveniently placed for access. Just my opinion, obviously.

Cheers,

Mike

Mike,

Again we are not talking about overall body position,...just the posed or staged parts that may be elements of that scene, not it entirely.

What Im suggesting is that the overall body position does not suggest specific posing, as you say, it may be the optimum for his work...but a breast under a head with a uterus are not in anyway a natural positions to find those items in, even during his improvised cut and find somewhere to place style of surgery.

If he adjusted the position of any portion of Marys body with other parts of her, I would think that bears close scrutiny. He did, with her head. Why....did he also turn it to face the windows or door? My opinion on the second is probably, yes. I dont know why he would do that though, .......unless, and this is a reach, he originally had her head elevated to "watch" him while he worked, and turned her face towards the door when he was leaving.

Off for a bit.....hope to see you later Mike.

[The Good Michael]

Mike,

I don't see it. Her position looks ideal for carving away at. The randomness (seeming) of it all would indicate no plan to pose. I think he just left her as was after he was finished. She looks to be conveniently placed for access. Just my opinion, obviously.

Cheers,

Mike

Hi there,

In terms of her overall body position, I would agree Mike.

My belief is that she was on her right side-knees bent when he attacked, she is defeated while in that position, unable to move much due to the position and his body weight, and while cut and semi conscious she is flipped onto her back.....leaving her in the middle of the bed now, legs akimbo, perhaps her left arm hanging out over the bed's left side by the night table. When he finishes the mutilations, he flips her arm back over her.....partly as a gesture of annoyance with it, since it may have been in the way for him while cutting and placing things on the night table.

None of that need be "staging" at all, but when things are deliberately placed where convenience is sacrificed for deliberate, then those are posed or staged or creative elements that are relevant to the killer.

Based on her face, her heart, the fact the eyes were apparently unscathed, the overall pose itself, and the casual nature of it.....it seems to me she was being mocked. Left reclining as a whore on a bed as an artists model. Only this "artist" uses blood, guts and corpses.

Best regards all.

[The Good Michael]

Just looking at Kelly: She was turned a little to her left on the bed, her lower body not quite parallel with the sides of the bed. Her upper body is straighter, but her head is cocked completely to her left, and not in a natural way (natural if unsupported by muscles and ligaments however).

There is nothing about this that resembles her being put in a pose as if she were waiting for a customer (in my opinion). I think a strong case can be argued that she was moved around a bit in order for the murderer (let's call him Jack) to gather enough light to do his thing. So movement of the body, repositioning, that sort of thing, okay, but I don't see a good case for actual posing. There may be a fine line between posing and positioning, but the former has to do with display, and the latter with necessity. Looking at the apparent randomness of Jack's "surgery", it would seem that posing the body was something not on his mind, and indeed the details of the butchery seem to have just happened as he explored his options and not to have been the carrying out of some plan.

I vote 'no' for posing.

Mike

[Jon Guy]

Hello

Doctor Bond only said that the organs were under the head, and not that they propped up the head, which can clearly be seen as not propped up in the photo.

Also, due to the severance of the structures in the neck the head would loll to one side as it was found.

If the Ripper wanted to shock he didn`t take any inspiration from Goulston St and write over the walls, indeed, he didn`t even take the ears or kidney for a bit of "postal" fun when he had the opportunity, and inspiration, if it wasn`t him previously.

[The Good Michael]

oh and could someone please tell me were to find Dew's account as I have no idea were to look. cheers

Here it is: http://www.casebook.org/ripper_media/rps.walterdew.html

Mike

[jason_c]

Any significance that all the organs were left on the bed? Only flesh was placed on the table.

As for the organs being used simply to prop up her head - why not use those great lumps of flesh on the table instead?

[Daveshredder]

Just thinking in mjk3 isnt that a pillow i can see on the desk, why not use that to prop her head up or even a item of clothing or such..
oh and could someone please tell me were to find Dew's account as I have no idea were to look. cheers

I don't think that Dew's account should be taken as entirely reliable, Mike.A very interesting idea, although I'd question whether any "placement" would have made the sight any more distressing. As far as I can see, the only (minor) element of body-placement would relate to the head or possibly the left arm - although the latter begs the question of why the right arm was allowed to remain on the mattress where it presumably last fell. The rest of the body, including the lower limbs, take on a perfectly "natural" pose, considering what the killer did to it.

I have to head out but I wanted to say I agree with you heartily on Dews account....and Im encouraged when you say "interesting".

My best to you Gareth, catch you on the weekend I hope.

[Sam Flynn]

I think for those who feel the room should have been "festooned" with organs you should read Dew's account of his first view of the room.

I don't think that Dew's account should be taken as entirely reliable, Mike.

You may not agree with me on this point, but I think you may see some merit in this......she is left reclining on a bed facing an anticipated guests arrival later that night.

A very interesting idea, although I'd question whether any "placement" would have made the sight any more distressing. As far as I can see, the only (minor) element of body-placement would relate to the head or possibly the left arm - although the latter begs the question of why the right arm was allowed to remain on the mattress where it presumably last fell. The rest of the body, including the lower limbs, take on a perfectly "natural" pose, considering what the killer did to it.