Mary Kelly....Penny Illustrated

[Malcolm X]

I think you may have misunderstood John Mr H, or I did, because I thought referring to the "window opening trick" referred to the access to the latch via the broken pane...not opening the window.

Her door had a key lock that the key was lost for, and the spring latch inside. That was her security system, total....Jack or no Jack. But until the end of October, Barnett lived there too...so did Maria for a bit. She was only truly alone in that room for a few days.

Best regards

yea' not sliding down the window, because that would make far too much noise, plus it might have been jammed in the frame, due to dampness...we have these windows in our Hotel, exactly the same age too; they're very noisy to move....they rattle like crazy in a strong wind/ as draughty as hell.

you can only reach that door latch through the lower pane, i tried it two years ago.

[Mr.Hyde]

Mr.Hyde

I think you may have misunderstood John Mr H, or I did, because I thought referring to the "window opening trick" referred to the access to the latch via the broken pane...not opening the window.

Her door had a key lock that the key was lost for, and the spring latch inside. That was her security system, total....Jack or no Jack. But until the end of October, Barnett lived there too...so did Maria for a bit. She was only truly alone in that room for a few days.

Best regards

And then she was murdered!

[Malcolm X]

hang around, we're all off topic here, i was wanting to talk about Mary's face, but Perrymason and Bob Hinton started talking about broken windows

i dont mind though, because it's still interesting

[Mr.Hyde]

Considering the latch and lost key.
JTR could have been waiting for her.Inside.
Not my scenario.
OMG!
Was there a bolt on the inside left?
Come on you people-yes or no.
There has been great work on this,let us use it.

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

A man standing in place in plain view watching a soon to be crime scene for almost 45 minutes is hardly discreet Ben,

But then nor is standing in an exposed location communicating with your victim shortly before the discovery of that victim's body, and yet the indications are that the killer did precisely that at earlier murders - which is far less discreet than loitering alone an hour before the generally accepted time of the murder.

and the only evidence that Jack ever scouted a scene is based on a premise that Hutch was also Jack.

Nope. It's based on Sarah Lewis' evidence that someone loitered outside a crime scene shortly before a murder, just as other serial killer have done before attacking their victims in indoor locations, despite the fact that they may have used different pre-crime strategies with earlier victims.

You might imagine prior scouting took place with the others, but theres no evidence that suggests it

Nor would you reasonably expect any, since "I saw a man walking" wasn't exactly going to constitute prime eyewitness evidence. There's certainly no evidence that would remotely militate against "scouting" at earlier crime scenes, and it makes more sense than a killer who suddenly blitz-attacked on an unplanned whim.

Quite right, and never once was he seen doing so...or leaving one.

Not quite. He was never particularly noticed walking from home to a crime scene. He was never particularly noticed walking home after a murder. It doesn't mean he was never seen.

Agreed. So why didnt anyone make that conclusion at that time? Why is that relationship logic completely absent from the records?

They probabaly did. There's no reason for it to have been present in the records. The police arrived at certain conclusions, but it wasn't necessary for them to detail their investigative reasoning in meticulous detail. Wideawake man may well have been a person of interest, but if, in the aftermath of Hutchinson's statement, the police satisfied themselves that wideawake was just Hutchinson waiting for Kelly and Astrakhan, the heat may well have been taken off that particular person-of-interest and deflected onto Astrakhan man.

but with cases like Eagle and Lave, Harvey and Watkins, Brown and Schwartz, Long and Cadosche, we know that simultaneous timings are given,... while knowing at least one of them was wrong.

But there you're talking about simultaneous timings being alleged for different events. In Hutchinson's case, you're essentially arguing for the simulataneous timing of the same events, but the events being unrelated! I can't agree. Lewis observed a man lotering outside the court at 2:30am on the night of the murder who was apparently watching and waiting for someone, and as soon as that became public knowledge, Hutchinson came forward with a claim to have loitered outside the court at 2:30am on the night of the murder, also watching and waiting for someone. The odds stacked against the two being random and unrelated are astronomical.

if they thought anything about him, Wideawake wise or not, wed have heard about that

No, we wouldn't have done, Mike. That most emphatically does not follow, and with respect, you really can't make assumptions like that.

then Wideawake could easily be someone just as I suggested..lookout, watching the courtyard

But even if the wideawake man wasn't Hutchinson - which I doubt - he'd remain a viable suspect in her murder. The possibility that he as a lookout still wouldn't rank any higher than the premise that he was the killer.

We have no issues saying that. Why did no-one in power say that then?

Again, it's a little unrealistic to expect that all police views, deductions and inferences have survived the test of time.

whose to say that Hutch isnt some nut wanting to be important for a few days

He may have been, though the annals of crime are hardly littered with examples of false witnesses who read about real witnesses, and then claim to have been a witnessed witness! Bit strange that he incriminated himself to that extent without giving himself an alibi in that scenario, too.

Im sorry mate by lately Ive come to the conclusion that Hutchinson is very probably what he is historically...a footnote, someone like hundreds of others who faked letters that wanted a piece of this history with their name on it.

The police may have dismissed him as such, certainly, but whether that's the role he actually fulfilled is another matter entirely.

There's no evidence that they made the connection between Hutchinson and Wideawake, but there's no evidence that they didn't either, which makes any confident, copperfastened conclusion in this regard almost impossible to justify. Wideawake remains an extremely viable suspect in Kelly's death, irrespective of his identity, especially given that his behaviour tallies so well with the behaviour of known serial killers. I'd have to respectfully reject your advice to "forget that the moderns stats that revealed this about so and so". It is precisely that attitude or forgetting, or plain not knowing, that often has a habit of leading investigators wildly astray.

Wideawake remains a viable suspect - very much so.

Best regards,
Ben

[Malcolm X]

And then she was murdered!

did the killer know that she was finally alone in that room and then chose to kill her as soon as possible, this was discussed in great detail years ago, good grief and i forgot all about this................this points to a killer that knew her well.

but of course, this is one of the reasons that she was out and about that night having a good drink.... she drew too much attention to herself and this could be it......the Ripper simply noticed her.

[Malcolm X]

Considering the latch and lost key.
JTR could have been waiting for her.Inside.
Not my scenario.
OMG!
Was there a bolt on the inside left?
Come on you people-yes or no.
There has been great work on this,let us use it.

door mechanism or very similar, to the one shown on this thread, there was no additional door bolt near the top or bottom of the door............ nothing!

but Blotchy or Hutch ? ......not sure, but i dont think Kelly went out again after being drunk, because one is far more likely to simply crash in bed feeling far too lazy to go out again, especially if it's cold and raining and she wanted to go to the Lord Mayors show the next day... she would've gone to bed exhausted from the booze plus the singing too, that's how it feels to me anyway.

[Mr.Hyde]

Left hand internal.Is that a bolt?
Again,genuine question.Check the photo.
This is more difficult than who JTR was.
ARGH!Can feel the avalanche!

[Malcolm X]

Wideawake was staring down millers court in a military fashion, or as if waiting for somebody to come out ( take your pick) , now this is suspicious behaviour, Hutchinson admitted to being there at this time, but he never said that somebody was standing by him watching too....NO HE DIDN'T, therefore it makes sense to Abberline that Wideawake was him!

Hutch probably said, ``that was me and i saw her too`` none of this is mentioned in his statement, why should it be, it's just waffle, it just confirms to Abberline that HUTCH is a reliable witness...........at that time!

[perrymason]

Left hand internal.Is that a bolt?
Again,genuine question.
This is more difficult than who JTR was.
ARGH!Can feel the avalanche!

I thought this had been answered for you a few times already Dave, but... all that was on that door was the lock that was accessed by a keyhole in the front ....that may well have slid a bolt into a catch, but was useless without a key...it was a mechanism within the door itself, and a surface applied spring latch on the inside, that could only be set off or on from inside the room, or via the window pane.

There was no surface application Dead bolt.

Hope that helps.

Cheers Mate.

[Mr.Hyde]

Check the photo!

[perrymason]

Check the photo!

I have, I did,..and I have looked into this and have given you the answers you will find if you investigate what method of locks or latches were on Marys door. I have investigated period hardware to be sure.

Whatever you think you see can be explained by knowing this....if it isnt part of the 2 methods that existed for locking that door, one from the outside, one from the inside,.. then that doesnt make it a 3rd locking mechanism that was unknown by all. It may just be the bolt or receptacle for the key access mechanism.

What do think this was, Fort Knox? Its an improvised rental space with an old door blocking the former entranceway to the stairs and door in the archway.

Of course you can continue if you like with this, but I can only give the same answer so many times mate. So Im out on further lock questions....

Cheers Dave

[Roy Corduroy]

They did not enter the room right away because the bloodhounds had been sent for.

[perrymason]

They did not enter the room right away because the bloodhounds had been sent for.
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Thats the story....and considering that one of the bloodhounds had already been returned to the owner in the countryside, and the other was unavailable, and the police request for funds to buy them was denied....they either didnt know that or used that as part of the delay explanation anyway.

Barnaby and Burgho had "left the building" by November 9th.

Cheers Roy.

[Mr.Hyde]

Mr.Hyde

I have, I did,..and I have looked into this and have given you the answers you will find if you investigate what method of locks or latches were on Marys door. I have investigated period hardware to be sure.

Whatever you think you see can be explained by knowing this....if it isnt part of the 2 methods that existed for locking that door, one from the outside, one from the inside,.. then that doesnt make it a 3rd locking mechanism that was unknown by all. It may just be the bolt or receptacle for the key access mechanism.

What do think this was, Fort Knox? Its an improvised rental space with an old door blocking the former entranceway to the stairs and door in the archway.

Of course you can continue if you like with this, but I can only give the same answer so many times mate. So Im out on further lock questions....

Cheers Dave

The lock is on the right,inside.The bolt is on the left,inside.Not my idea.
Inspect the photo.
Just makes sense.