Mary Kelly....Penny Illustrated

[Malcolm X]

hi Ben

my main man is back and stay off that other thread!

[Ben]

Hutchinson, if Wideawake Man as he suggests, is far more likely to have been looking out based on the account...rather than scouting for an entrance time for himself.

Not really sure how this one would follow, Mike...?

Whoever the Wideawake man was, he's a very strong suspect in Kelly's death, especially when we known that other serial killers have monitered their indoor crime scenes from a vantage point, surveying the scene before attacking; an approach used to devastating effect by Robert Napper, Ted Bundy, Denis Rader and others. I'm not sure why his activity would announce "lookout" or "accomplice" more than the murderer himself.

So, why is he waiting 45 more minutes to watch a room that has been dark already for half an hour when he arrived?

Possibly he was waiting for Blotchy to skidaddle.

All the best,
Ben

[Malcolm X]

hi Mike

We're not sure exactly when her light went out, S.Lewis mentions nothing concrete and Mrs Cox said Mary was still singing at 1am but quiet at 3am.

``Elizabeth Prater, the wife of William Prater, a boot finisher who had left her 5 years before, is standing at the entrance to Miller's Court waiting for a man. Prater lives in room number 20 of 26 Dorset Street. This is directly above Kelly. She stands there about a half hour and then goes into to McCarthy's to chat. She hears no singing and sees no one go in or out of the court.``...this is at about 1.30am, but she was pretty drunk too, so i wouldn't trust what she had to say; because it's hard enough to trust them when they're sober!

as for mutilating MARY at 4am, it is very late at night; so the killer can be pretty sure that nobody is likely to come along and knock on her door, but i have to agree it is still very risky.... i for one dont entertain a ``dastardly duo``, i think the ripper was definitely on his own.

as for leaving without being noticed, yes this too is a risk, but not nearly as risky/foolhardy as killing Mary in the morning; as some here have mentioned..............but this risk of being seen afterwards, is also present at the Stride murder or Annie Chapman...especially Chapman.

HUTCH waiting outside just looks so guilty, unless of course he's lieing about it all; my guess is that he was there and making sure that Kelly was going to sleep and not going out again, the other alternative is that Kelly did indeed stop singing at 1.25; but Blotchy face was still there and he left after 2am..after sex!

dont forget that in my theory, the 2am visit from Hutch, was his second visit..... so he might've gone down there again and heard those two humping away inside.........then thought, ``i'll wait and see if that bloke leaves``

Hi Mal,

To me whats on paper suggests that Blotchy may have been in the room when Wideawake is seen by Sarah Lewis, in which case I would see great merit in the police issuing a Pardon for an Accomplice, "after the fact", the day after she is found.

Hutchinson, if Wideawake Man as he suggests, is far more likely to have been looking out based on the account...rather than scouting for an entrance time for himself. Astrakan and that sighting is nonsense. The police learned that too. So that means that by only the evidence submitted at Inquest, its probable Marys room was dark and quiet from 1:30am on. So, why is he waiting 45 more minutes to watch a room that has been dark already for half an hour when he arrived? Only to leave while it remains dark. And If he leaves...how will he know when Mary Ann Cox comes in for the night...which would indicate no more court traffic at all for a few hours.

Say what you will, but the Police strongly resisted Reward and Pardon talk throughout that Fall....they were determined to bring the fiend to justice without any deals....but they saw an opportunity in this murder that suggested strongly that 2 men might have been involved here.

Considering the nature of the courtyard, its access tunnel some 20 feet in length, and the fact that once in Marys room with the curtains closed and door shut...the killer was in effect completely blind to anyone that might look in the window, or even come to Marys door.

Her killer had to know the coast in the archway was clear, and that the street had no-one in the immediate area when he bolts from there, he has to figure this murder will bring the vigilantes out in full force.

My guess would be whistling as communication.

Best regards Mal.

[Malcolm X]

in reply to your post Micheal:-

that's why i suspect Hutchison, Ben and i used to discuss him on this forum a couple of years ago... he looks so guilty.

my guess is that Blotchy face left earlier on and Hutch broke in at close to 4am, his tactics of lurking outside are perfect for a 4am break in. ... because in doing so, he knows that Mary has finally gone to bed and not about to go out again, he then leaves to give her a chance to fall into a deep sleep and then returns later....

a friend? i thought so about a week ago, but not by friday, the killer is either Blotchy face or Hutch............ this is a strong statement for me to say, yes; i cant see any other alternative.

Hutch either looks totally innocent/ made it all up...........or the killer and quite clever too, i just depends on which side of the fence you're standing, it's a shame all our old posts were deleted; and if this is going to happen every 3 years; then i'm reluctant to start them up again....too much work.

anyway, if Stride was killed by the Ripper, then this killer had enormous agility and stealth... more like ``SPRINGHEELED JACK``...so this killer was probably quite young and fit...... i cant see how Jack killed Stride otherwise.......no idea, the easy answer is :- ``JACK didn't kill Stride``

the mess inside her room will reveal no killer, it doesn't mean much.... but it helps with a theory ........which in return reveals little either, because anybody could be into the occult, so we're right back to square one.

in my opinion it's a straight fight between Blotchy and Hutch.

the other alternative is that HUTCH was never outside, but any killer waiting to break in at 4am, has to lurk outside and use almost identical tactics to HUTCH (there is no other way), Hutch gives strong clues to actually being outside... especially afterwards ( next few hours) and over the next 3 days too..... he lied about LA DE DA ( definitely), but he needed a good excuse for being outside................ but his big mistake was to describe the suspect far too well..

i've always wondered if HUTCH never knew her, what attracted him to wait outside Millers court?................. i've thought this over and over during the past 2 years:- i think he was walking by, when all of a sudden he heard a young woman singing loudly in Millers Court....... he stopped, went down there; saw the light on and walked away from Dorset st.......... ``she's no good, she's got company and she'll be awake for flippin' ages yet``.

he couldn't find a suitable victim after this ( that he could really mutilate well) ......so at roughly 2am he returned to Millers court......he then thought ``sod this she's still up, right i'm gonna' wait till i know she's gone to bed... hang around look at that broken window, yea' now that's flippin' close to the door handle``............maybe.........maybe not!

back on topic, any killer could've noticed that broken window.....dead easy to see.

[Barnaby]

Oh my. The top hole clearly is the profile of Sherlock Holmes looking toward the door. You can see his nose, the tail of his deer stalker cap, and even a pipe protruding from his mouth. This obviously implicates Doyle as our murderer!!!!

Then again, viewed the other way, it looks like Homer Simpson

Those are some of the key questions to wrestle with John.

My feedback is that I agree, people looked through the window and could easily discerne the broken pane opportunity, I think McCarthy knew, and its a mystery why he would force the door based on that thinking...unless to prove a point, that no-one had entered it since the killer left...something which I am unsure of myself. They were gathered in that court for 2 hours and not one person entered the room? Maybe...maybe not.

On the killers entry, if he sets the latch on via the broken window to get in, that would mean Blotchy had gone, Mary retired, and she likely set the latch off when Blotchy left.

That also would narrow down the list of suspects, because a stranger to that room in the middle of the night might not be able to see the possibility that existed with the broken pane...it was slightly covered by the Pilot Coat...and the muslin curtain.

The only other means of entry are with Mary, I agree with you and the police that Astrakan is fabricated, so that leaves Blotchy as suspect #1, he is the last man seen with Mary entering her room. Or...he might try knocking on her door or window, something which might even startle a cat upstairs. In that scenario, we once again have a narrow suspect band...it would have to be someone close enough to Mary that she would voluntarily let in in the middle of the night...perhaps while partially undressed.

The last option is that she was in bed asleep, and she forgot to set the latch off when she let Blotchy out. He just opens the door.

For my money......the last option is the only one where the Jack the Ripper possibilities lie. I believe if she was killed by someone close within that narrow suspect list, then he was mad enough to try and fake a Ripper murder to cover his act. I do not believe that someone close to her and "Jack".. was the same person. If Jack killed her, then he entered by himself and got at her.

Thing is...there is evidence that suggests Mary spoke around 3:45...and no noise was heard with that voice, or after it.....and another point as you mentioned, the killer must have set the latch off when he closed the door behind him for it to lock. Why would he inhibit access to a corpse now? Or maybe he set that latch off because it was his habit to do so. An Unconscious act. What would that imply?

Im trying to illustrate only the things that bug me about this murder....to be frank, the mess that the killer made in room 13 I think is just about the least important piece of evidence. "Jack the Ripper" style murders can be attempted by others..and likely was in the case of Alice McKenzie.

Its the suggestion that the entrance and exit questions have answers within the context of a close male friend/lover/suitor...of MJ's.

I dont see any reason myself to assume that if her killer was a close male person, then he must have been the Ripper too. Thats based on her cuts, and a flawed perception of what acts were actually taking place that Fall.

Hope something in there rings true for you...all the best John.

[Dr. John Watson]

I can almost guarantee that most, if not all, of the officers on scene, especially the detectives, had a look into the room through that broken window. The door latch was close enough to the window so that it would have been visible to any who looked. It's hard to believe that once the decision had been made to enter the room, not one officer attempted the simple task of reaching through the window and at least trying to open the latch. It also seems likely that McCarthy himself would have tried the window method before resorting to destructive entry methods. This is a small mystery, I suppose. Still, one of the unanswered questions of this case is how Jack got in to Kelly's room. Either she let him in, or he let himself in. (I don't believe Hutchinson's "astrakhan man" ever existed, or if he did, he left Kelly alive.) The spring lock had to be in the unlatched position for Jack to enter. Either Kelly opened it for him, or she left it unlocked when she retired for the night and Jack somehow discovered this, or Jack somehow knew of the broken window and used it to unlatch the door - showing resourcefulness the police apparently lacked. Since the door was "locked" when police arrived, it would mean that Jack had the presence of mind to set the latch in the "lock" position when he fled the room. The question then becomes, why bother? Knowing the answers to these questions might help us understand the Ripper a little better. But since the answers are not to be found in the written record, I suppose this door lock mystery will just have to remain among the many imponderables in this case - unless, of course, someone has the definitive solution!

[Malcolm X]

Hi Mal,

On the broken panes....when you think that Joe and Mary were behind the equivalent of 3 weeks rent, that they had broken the window, lost the key, and had a third person living in the room with them for a bit....they were in no position to pay for replacement panes, or demand McCarthy do so himself.

Best regards

yes i forgot about that.... because that lot would cost a lot of money to fix

Hi Mal,

Just a note that I wasnt claiming I invented the concept, if you read what I said.. Jane mentioned someone suggesting it here on this thread, and I said I was "one" of the people that had.

My ego doesnt need it...trust me.

On the broken panes....when you think that Joe and Mary were behind the equivalent of 3 weeks rent, that they had broken the window, lost the key, and had a third person living in the room with them for a bit....they were in no position to pay for replacement panes, or demand McCarthy do so himself.

Best regards

[Malcolm X]

if the ripper did reach through the window to gain entry, he would've had to know that Kelly was fast asleep, which meams waiting outside in Dorset st...definitely.....it's no wonder that BEN and i are so suspicious of you know who .but that's off topic so i'll say no more.

the door left on the latch has been a theory for many years Michael, so you cant take credit for that my old fruit

getting back to that window, it really is a huge security risk, but i expect Mary couldn't afford to fix the front door, i would've thought that Joe would've done this for her and then fixed the windows too, poor girl must've been freezing .....what a lazy useless b***** he was.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Jane

Yes, McCarthy forced the door with a pickaxe, as you say, probably just levied the door open by the lock. It is a common misconception, the other big misconception is what side of the road Pipeman was standing.

Hi Malcolm

Original window. I think that photo was taken on the morning Nov 9th whilst waiting to get into the room, but I might be mistaken..

Hi,

Just a point about the illustration of the police 'breaking' down the door of Mary's room......It's not only the window that's inaccurate.

The expression 'breaking down the door' isn't really the correct term. What actually happened was that the door was levered open using minimal force to cause the least damage to the door, presumably only damaging the lock which could be replaced easily.

Just thought I'd better point that out as it's a misconception that gets bandied about a lot and taken as gospel. I think it just looked a bit more dramatic for the picture having a cop with a great big sledgehammer!

Just shows you can't trust artists. Lol.

I think that Jon hit the nail on the head about the police just assuming that the key had gone missing and went for the easiest method of entry. Besides which - would you have wanted to put your arm through that window with a table full of entrails right in front of it?

I've lost track of who said that Mary's door was probably left on the latch when she went out, but I think they're right whoever they are. Lol. Not only was it a common custom in those days, but it ties in with Cox's statement as well. No-one had much worth nicking and perhaps more importantly I can't imagine Mary would want to put her hand through the broken window when she was drunk as she could have done herself some real damage.

Wouldn't really have helped the client's ardour much either if she had to sod about trying to get the door open, when he was standing there with a broom handle in his trousers.

So best guess, the door was on the latch.

Love

Jane

xxxxx

Hi Jane,

I was one of the ones that suggested it was left on the latch, so I concur with you on this. As I mentioned, it also might explain her bringing a rougher looking fellow home with her.. to sing to...which is all we know she did for him. A Bodyguard. Shes going home to a dark room at night alone, maybe the first night that she has come home hammered since Joe left, and anyone could have entered her room while she was gone. My bet is he was thinking he might be "hired help with benefits", but her singing off and on for over an hour sort of quashes that idea for me...and probably him. So does he try and take what she wasnt giving.....aye, theres the rub.

I think people forget that she had only been alone in the room a few days, Maria moved to her own place earlier in the week and Joe had only been gone since month end.

On the forcing of the door, since police had been in the court since just after 11, locking it down by 11:30, and the door isnt forced until 1:30 on the record, I do think its a problem surmising that not one of the people there knew of, or figured out, the window pane latch method. I think we have an attempt to illustrate the mystery surrounding this particular murder....that the room was locked from the inside.

I think McCarthys show of force is only added drama.

All the best Jane.

[Malcolm X]

my guess is the broken window looked more like that, but you cant tell much from the photo; i'm only going from memory recall from about a year ago.

what is interesting though is :- that is the original window, it hasn't been repaired yet because i see no glazing ``putty``...which as you know is a very light pale flesh colour....it takes flipping ages to cure before you can paint over it, especially in november time.

the area in the lower window where the broken glass is, has a far less dense light grey ``spray`` pattern, so that could indeed be the broken glass..

that window would've been fairly hard to slide open, well jammed up in the runners due to damp; Kelly would've definitely woken up, it's therefore far more likely that the ripper simply reached in..or was Blotchy face!

[Jane Coram]

Hi,

Just a point about the illustration of the police 'breaking' down the door of Mary's room......It's not only the window that's inaccurate.

The expression 'breaking down the door' isn't really the correct term. What actually happened was that the door was levered open using minimal force to cause the least damage to the door, presumably only damaging the lock which could be replaced easily.

Just thought I'd better point that out as it's a misconception that gets bandied about a lot and taken as gospel. I think it just looked a bit more dramatic for the picture having a cop with a great big sledgehammer!

Just shows you can't trust artists. Lol.

I think that Jon hit the nail on the head about the police just assuming that the key had gone missing and went for the easiest method of entry. Besides which - would you have wanted to put your arm through that window with a table full of entrails right in front of it?

I've lost track of who said that Mary's door was probably left on the latch when she went out, but I think they're right whoever they are. Lol. Not only was it a common custom in those days, but it ties in with Cox's statement as well. No-one had much worth nicking and perhaps more importantly I can't imagine Mary would want to put her hand through the broken window when she was drunk as she could have done herself some real damage.

Wouldn't really have helped the client's ardour much either if she had to sod about trying to get the door open, when he was standing there with a broom handle in his trousers.

So best guess, the door was on the latch.

Love

Jane

xxxxx