Millers Court Today.

[Stewart P Evans]

Not...

...Thats in no way an attack on the tour guides etc, as Im sure the guys convey the story very tastefully and respectfully.

Not all of them do, the one I watched last week certainly lacked taste and respect (and years for that matter). His talk bordered on the prurient and was a bit too light-hearted and jokey for comfort.

[George Hutchinson]

Only JUST, Mike. The bed lay where the kerb is, so the room itself is partially outside, partially on the cusp of the building, and mostly inside the shutters.

PHILIP

[mike74]

Yes i went on a ripper tour years ago and didn't realise that dorset street was very very narrow, so the buildings that are there now are further back than the original street. So that means mary's room was indeed in the middle of the service road as it is today, so you are actually standing in here room!.

[WARSPITE]

Yes I agree,over the years Ive become more alarmed at some of the trinkets and souvenirs available. Even some of the book covers;sickening commercialism.Thats in no way an attack on the tour guides etc, as Im sure the guys convey the story very tastefully and respectfully.

[George Hutchinson]

Hi Warspite.

The only tasteful thing you could sell would be books on the subject, and that avenue was catered for until recently by the now defunct Murder One in Charing Cross Road. There are plenty of Ripper trinkets, and they're all pretty ghastly. Such tat in the district would get the shop smashed up and burnt. There are bookshops in Brick Lane, one in particular concentrating on local history, but I don't think you'll ever find a Ripper shop.

PHILIP

[WARSPITE]

Ditto Veritas. Phil,I wonder if youve ever heard of any plans of anyone opening some kind of 'shop' about the murders. Im surprised someone hasnt already,perhaps in one of the adjacent back streets,as one would think theyd not be short of customers what with tourists,casual and serious ripper folk that visit the neighbourhood. Of course,I suspect it would have to be tastefully done,if thats possible,as Im sure it would attract controversy from certain parties.

[Veritas]

Visiting the site is wonderfully creepy and somber (and feels dangerous as the area attracts some weird people).

[George Hutchinson]

I have a copy of the planned office block document given to me by one of the workers at the Fruit Exchange a few weeks ago. Actually, the building fitted right in - it looked really nice and old for the most part - but it would indeed have destroyed that whole block and there was very little space for leisure or retail there - nearly all offices. The site of #13 would have indeed been right in the middle of an office.

As for the cellars, I've found out about them too. The current extensive cellars are more modern; nothing left of the subterranean level - we now have long, empty concrete galleries.

PHILIP

[WARSPITE]

Yeh I posted that original thread..

The proposal was to demolish both the White Row car park and the fruit exchange and in its place build an office block straddling both. This would mean the site of Millers Ct would be inside the building itself.

It was approved in principal, but the planners didnt like the architecture of the proposed building in comparision with older buildings in the area.

This info is available on the Tower Hamlets planning website.

Kevin

Ill go mad if they put up a s****y modern office block on Duval St. Phils point is a good one about uncovering cellars,but I doubt theyd let us examine them if there were any left. Id feel strong enough to stage a sit in protest. Anyone joining me?

[Veritas]

Quite all right Sam.

I remember being at the site at the end of the Rumbelow tour. It was around 10:30 at night and I was thinking that there should be such an eerie or somber feeling, but there were fifty fellow tourists standing around debating things with Donald and he was doing his best to sell books and it was all very distracting. Definitely didn't feel like I was standing on the spot where Mary died and where Abberline knelt down to probe the fireplace. Can anyone share the feelings they've had while visiting the site alone?

Visitng the site alone (even in the day time but preferabbly at night) is far more evocative then with a large tourr group. However it helps to know the history of Dorset/Duval Street first. I first visited "Miller's Court" site in 1986 on a tour but there were only 20 - 24 of us so we got more of the atmosphere and sense of dread. I took the Rumbelow tour in 1996 and frankly could not say that it was much better then a number of tours I have taken. You are right - Rumbleow likes to sell books and is sort of dogmatice when you try to state a case for example that Tabram was a Ripper victim. Too bad Duval/Dorset Street was obliterated first in 1928 (North side) and then in the late 1960's (South side) - so much hisotry and atmosphere. Speaking of atmosphere the most evocative of the canonical sites had to have been Durward Street especially when approached via the Woods Buildings entrance. Unfortunately the Woods Buldings entrance was closed the last time I was in Lndon in 2005.

[Steve S]

Still cellars there in the 60's when my Dad worked there.....
Steve

[George Hutchinson]

Hmm... this might be worthy of an enquiry to the main office in Brushfield Street, methinks. I wonder where you'd start?

The 1928 image of the destruction of the block shows the cellars appearing to be extant and not being filled in. Mind you, half of the north side of Duval Street was still standing so it might be early on.

There's a great old guy who works in the section where #13 was and he's always friendly to me when I come round with my groups so maybe I could ask him sometime?

PHILIP

[Limehouse]

The only possible benefit that could ever come from that happening would be the possible uncovering of any remaining foundations of the buildings of Dorset Street - surely they had cellars? Actually... did they? We've never discussed this one.

PHILIP

Phillip, according to Ian Sinclair, there are 'catacombs' beneath the Fruit Exchange. These are used for storage. I'd like to bet these are the remains of cellars belonging to the old buildings in Dorset Street? I got this information from a book called Rodinsky's Room by Rachel Lichtenstein and Ian Sinclair.

[Monty]

No worries Jeff, and remind Paul he owes me a pint.

Monty.

[Jeff Leahy]

Thomas, Dr William Evans (1856-1889)

Alleged suspect, born Anglesey. From at least 1884, Dr Thomas practiced at 190 Green Street, Victoria Park., about three quarters of a mile away from Bucks row. Local oral tradition in Anglesey exaggeratedthe location to Spital feilds. Following the last killing, he suffered a breakdown, and after he had been fetched back to Anglesey, piosoned himself. It is not known whether the traditions (made public in 1993) also exaggerated the ralation to Ripper murders of his earlier visits home. North wales Villagers give him the Welsh name 'Jacripa'.

Well there's interesting info. Many thanks to you both for those leads..

I will of course harry the old welshman 'Begg' next week as I ow him a visit.

Many thanks guys

Jeff