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  • #1

    mary & joe

    mary was still fresh from mr.flemming, when after meeting twice she decided to live with joe barnett.
    this was a very dangerouse and rash move to make, why was she so quick to escape her current situation? what was she running from?
    there could be many reasons for this rather quick set-up, but my theory is this:
    i think mary was still vunrable from flemming, and joe (stuck in a dead end job, and living in poverty) and with mary he saw a chance. he probably thought his ship had come in with her. so he decided to live with her, manipulating her into thinking she relied on him. then he started pimping her out. this would have happened to alot of weomen at this time i guess. but at times she would have said no, then he would have become violent, but because mary was known to be a fighter, she would have smacked him back. resulted in a very volotile relationship!

    but thats just my theory, what are your thoughts on the relationship???

    ---MJK---
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  • #2
    Well, yes. It makes perfect sense to me.

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    • #3
      Or maybe, hooking up with someone very soon after being with someone else is hardly abnormal (rebound), and private things that happen between people that end up being drawn into historical events are never going to be known. Mary and Joe hooked up in an environment where heavy drinking was the norm. It is a circumstance that both draws people together and turns them against each other. They were bound to have constant fights, even if they were totally in love. Just think of all the private nuances there are to any relationship. We will never know what went on between them. Sorry, but I always find myself having a really negative reaction to anyone who suggests that it might have been Joe that killed Mary. It seems to me that he left her (though not intending it to be permanent) when he just couldn't abide some of her behaviors anymore.

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      • #4
        Hello you all!

        I think, it was an architype love-relationship, that took an end...

        And, like Joe himself said: "..."She would never have gone wrong again," he tells a newspaper, "and I shouldn't have left her if it had not been for the prostitutes stopping at the house. She only let them (stay there) because she was good hearted and did not like to refuse them shelter on cold bitter nights." He adds, "We lived comfortably until Marie allowed a prostitute named Julia to sleep in the same room; I objected: and as Mrs. Harvey afterwards came and stayed there, I left and took lodgings elsewhere..."

        All the best
        JUkka
        "When I know all about everything, I am old. And it's a very, very long way to go!"

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        • #5
          I'm not convinced Joe left because Mary was allowing women of the night sleep over.

          His leaving 13 Millers Court ties in with him losing his job and losing his income. Possibly Mary had a practical side of her and was not prepared to starve. What if she chucked him out because he could not provide for her?

          Also, maybe Joe wasn't giving her money. Maybe he was popping round regularly and Mary was giving him a few pennies every now and then because she felt sorry for him? On the night she died he came round and testified later that he apologised for not having any money for her. But he was playing cards later - probably for pennies - where did he get the cash from? He he was hardly going to admit to living off his prostitute girlfriend, was he?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by BillieHoliday View Post
            I'm not convinced Joe left because Mary was allowing women of the night sleep over.

            His leaving 13 Millers Court ties in with him losing his job and losing his income. Possibly Mary had a practical side of her and was not prepared to starve. What if she chucked him out because he could not provide for her?

            Also, maybe Joe wasn't giving her money. Maybe he was popping round regularly and Mary was giving him a few pennies every now and then because she felt sorry for him? On the night she died he came round and testified later that he apologised for not having any money for her. But he was playing cards later - probably for pennies - where did he get the cash from? He he was hardly going to admit to living off his prostitute girlfriend, was he?

            and maby joe's visits to mary was for his pimpimg money???? thats why she was so late withher rent?


            ---MJK---

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Mary_Jane_Kelly View Post
              and maby joe's visits to mary was for his pimpimg money???? thats why she was so late withher rent?


              ---MJK---
              Do you think he turned pimp after losing his job? Or was he pimping her out as well as holding down full time employment? And if he was her pimp he didn't do a very job of it - pimps are supposed to protect their investment.

              There doesn't appear to be any sign of him after 8pm on the fateful night. A pimp is also supposed to bring clients to the woman.

              No I don't think he was a pimp although he was probably happy to live off the few pennies she gave him.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by BillieHoliday View Post
                Do you think he turned pimp after losing his job? Or was he pimping her out as well as holding down full time employment? And if he was her pimp he didn't do a very job of it - pimps are supposed to protect their investment.

                There doesn't appear to be any sign of him after 8pm on the fateful night. A pimp is also supposed to bring clients to the woman.

                No I don't think he was a pimp although he was probably happy to live off the few pennies she gave him.


                and how do we know that he did'nt bring clients to her? it cant have been uncommon back then. they were living in desparete times remember. and he did make regular visits to her, he could have brought a client with him.

                ---MJK---

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                • #9
                  My personal opinion is that way too much is made of their relationship and its problems. I doubt they were the only couple in Whitechapel that had hit a rough patch. Given that, you would think that at least a few other jolted or unhappy lovers would have gone berserk and hacked up their girlfriends.

                  c.d.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Mary_Jane_Kelly View Post
                    and how do we know that he did'nt bring clients to her? it cant have been uncommon back then. they were living in desparete times remember. and he did make regular visits to her, he could have brought a client with him.

                    ---MJK---
                    But there's no evidence that he did bring clients to her. so we can only suppose. On the fateful night he was not seen in the vicinity after 8pm. MJK was seen with a few men, taking two of them to 13 MC and Joe was nowhere to be seen. So it doesn't seem like these two men were sent to Mary from Joe.

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