who was the real MJK??

[perrymason]

Those wounds were categorized as possible defense wounds Kensei, so......

Mary Jane, you point out some things that lead me to surmise that the cry of "oh-murder" wasnt likely a start point of her attack...as she was fully conscious and verbal if it was her that made the cry out. Leaving being startled or annoyed as 2 very possible reasons for the phrasing.

Its written in some reports as "oh-murder", like it was 2 distinct beats...perhaps the volume on the second beat is where we might learn her reasons for the phrase and inflection.

I believe she was attacked while semi-sleeping, or that her airway was restricted by the killer....the only real problem with the second one is how exactly do you slash at someone who has their arm blocking their face and neck and still keep them silent? That might mean there was noise...but after those awake in the courtyard have nodded off.

Best regards MJ

[WARSPITE]

i would really like to know all the myths, stories, gossip and anything else related to MJK. and is there any photos of her, before her death? even ones that are suspected to be of her.
its well known that MJK was a fighter and could handle herself in an argument with any a punter or mouthy rival prostitute, but is it true the rumour i've heard that she could knock out a cart hourse with one punch?

Hi Mary Jane, its an honour to meet you!
Having worked in A&E several years,dealing with a wide range of people,including homeless,alcoholics etc, painful as it is to say it,with the greatest respect,I suspect MK's daily struggle for survival and lifestyle would be taking its toll on any natural beauty she possessed. I see it so often,and things must have been worse in 1888.

[Mary_Jane_Kelly]

its an honour to meet u too warspite,

i do beleave that mary would have had a somewhat 'haggard' look about her, but i just think she is the most mysteriouse victim....


---MJK---

[Graham]

LVP = "Late Victorian Period" - a vernacular expression of the latter half of the 19th Century, meaning "an early sign of a possible pregnancy"

I've only just clocked this thread! Sam, you really are a rotten sod! I've just dampened my gusset laughing! And what's an even bigger giggle, I don't think anyone else picked up on this!

Graham

PS: Oh, they have....sorry, Mitch. But still ball-breakingly funny.

[WARSPITE]

its an honour to meet u too warspite,

i do beleave that mary would have had a somewhat 'haggard' look about her, but i just think she is the most mysteriouse victim....


---MJK---

Youre so right.Why are we captivated by her so much?

[Graham]

She could have been anyone. "Mary Jane" - very common Christian names in Victorian times. "Kelly" - very common surname in the East End. If whoever she was wanted an anonymous alias, she chose the right one.

Graham

[babybird67]

Sam

absolutely hilarious comment on LVP! Thanks!

as an aside, how common would it have been for prostitutes to use an alias at that time, does anyone know?

[Graham]

as an aside, how common would it have been for prostitutes to use an alias at that time, does anyone know?

How about 'Fairy Fay'?

Cheers,

Graham (still doubled up, courtesy of friggin' Sam....)

[Slimsid2000]

http://images.absoluteastronomy.com/images/topicimages/s/so/sonia_evans.gif

I bet more like this.

[perrymason]

I personally think its a stretch to imagine that we can trace the records of a legitimate Mary Jane Kelly anymore than we can a woman who used an alias as such. Census data relied on only the tenants words as to their real name and place or origin. There was no standardized legal documentation they could be forced legally to present.

She could have plucked the name from thin air, or constructed it from actual given names or a surname. Kelly, as we can see, is the Smith or Jones pseudonym of its day round those parts.

My bet is that the given names Mary and Jane were names that were familial, maybe one hers and her real mothers or a sisters.

I can say with a bit of experience in the area of women who exploit sexuality for their income, that real given names often are lost over the years. No.....its not what you imagine.........I dated a few highly paid exotic dancers a decade or so ago after using an agent of theirs for a casting job my company did for a movie called Boys will be Girls. I know no-one cares....but I didnt want imaginations to categorize me incorrectly. Lets just say I never paid anything for the company ....

But real, given full names were hardly ever used by these women unless it was in their Mothers house.

Best regards all.

[Sam Flynn]

The difference here, Mike, is that we're not dealing with "exotic" women at all - and the majority of the other unfortunates, whose names we know in connection with this case, are in fact traceable in the censuses. Hardly surprising, given that we're talking about casual prostitutes in the main, rather than "sex professionals".

[perrymason]

The difference here, Mike, is that we're not dealing with "exotic" women at all - and the majority of the other unfortunates, whose names we know in connection with this case, are in fact traceable in the censuses. Hardly surprising, given that we're talking about casual prostitutes in the main, rather than "sex professionals".

You know Sam.. contextually... I believe Mary was an "exotic" in those neck of the woods at that time. She is young, pretty, has her own digs, used to work in a brothel wearing nice dresses, and may have been a consort in Paris for a brief time. To my eye almost every other street prostitute in these stories is over 40, many are missing teeth, some undernourished.. some over nourished, none had a home and all were used to "street" servicing.

Mary is a far better prospect for someone who wanted to spend their money with a good looking woman....rather than just any woman.

I think this is a factor that needs to be remembered when reviewing the life leading up to the death of these women. At least one came from a decent home, all were married at one time, perhaps all had children at one time.

Mary included.

But Marys natural charms likely afforded her opportunities such as the Paris trip that these other ladies, less gifted physically, would never have.

In that way, she is "exotic". And if you dont imagine that there is a pecking order in women in the sex trade or sex entertainment business, youd be wrong. The gifted physically get the breaks. ...like in any career of the civilized world, where looks are a saleable commodity.

All the best Sam

[Sam Flynn]

Like I said, Mike - "in the main" we aren't dealing with exotic sex professionals (the likes of "Steffi von Spank", "Julie Juggs" etc.) when talking about streetwalkers in the Late Victorian Period. I was really only making that general point, which may or may not have applied to Kelly. I sense, however, that if she'd changed her name for whatever reason, it had nothing to do with her "occupation" whilst she lived in the East End.

[perrymason]

Like I said, Mike - "in the main" we aren't dealing with exotic sex professionals (the likes of "Steffi von Spank", "Julie Juggs" etc.) when talking about streetwalkers in the Late Victorian Period. I was really only making that general point, which may or may not have applied to Kelly. I sense, however, that if she'd changed her name for whatever reason, it had nothing to do with her "occupation" whilst she lived in the East End.

It might if she had ever worked in the West End before or at an upscale brothel Sam. A Change of Social Status up or down might necessitate a new name in that line of work.

All the best SF

[Sam Flynn]

It might if she had ever worked in the West End before

I wasn't precluding that, Mike. I was just keen that we didn't give the impression that it would have been commonplace for East End prostitutes to adopt "exotic" names, or even to change their names at all. As we know, most of them were "ordinary" women who resorted to casual prostitution now and then. Even East Enders who resorted to it more frequently were hardly glamorous enough to warrant a nom du sexe, unlike - perhaps - their counterparts in the West End, where the "upclass" brothels were to be found.