Fish and Chips

[BillieHoliday]

Effete Southerners. You guys just don't understand good wholesome food.

(mmmmmmm...mushy peas!!)

Newsprint was cheap and used to wrap all sorts of stuff. An obvious way to avoid overhead was to use yesterday's paper for wrapping food, goods etc. Fish and chips were always wrapped in newspaper.

Lol! Yes I'm a soppy southerner. I tried mushy peas once - never again. What's wrong with marrowfat peas, straight from the tin, as God intended them?

In the 1970s when I was a kid we still got our F&C in newspaper before the white paper came in.

I just wonder, in the East End were there enough newspapers circulating in the area for them to accommodate the various food shops?

Stuff I've read over the years suggests that most customers provided their own crockery or 'rented' crockery and returned it to the shop.

I'm loving Fish and chips tempura.

[Jay Batsford]

We Brits have some weird traditional food but i have never heard of or seen anybody in my local town with a pot of tatters and fish! if tradition is anything to go by in Britain we can safely assume it was a bag of fish & chips

[Jay Batsford]

I had F&C the other night my local chippie is doing a 12month thing where they have put the price of fish and chips bck to the price they where in 1989 to commemorate them being open twenty years!!! large Fish and Chips £1.80 I know what next years new years resolution gonna be!lol

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

To sum up, the fish and chips suggest to me that Kelly was killed earlier in the evening than has been previously suggested. That she died between 1.30 and 2.00 am. And if this is the case, I doubt she left her room after entering it with Blotchy Face.

We started talking about digestion over on the other Mary Kelly board because it was mentioned by Perry Mason. However, rate of digestion is only one idicator for time of death. Very helpful if you know the last time that Kelly ate but otherwise practically useless on its own. It was the described state of rigor mortis in the body, considering the circumstances of the murder, which led the medical experts to suggest a time of death somewhere between 6 and 10 am (narrowed to between 8 and 10). This seems to support Dr. Phillips' opinion. Digestion on its own is not going to be much help to you, I'm afraid.

Wolf.

[Chava]

We started talking about digestion over on the other Mary Kelly board because it was mentioned by Perry Mason. However, rate of digestion is only one idicator for time of death. Very helpful if you know the last time that Kelly ate but otherwise practically useless on its own. It was the described state of rigor mortis in the body, considering the circumstances of the murder, which led the medical experts to suggest a time of death somewhere between 6 and 10 am (narrowed to between 8 and 10). This seems to support Dr. Phillips' opinion. Digestion on its own is not going to be much help to you, I'm afraid.

Wolf.

If that's all you have, I agree with you. But it isn't. We know Kelly could not have eaten that meal between 11.45 pm and 1.15 am. She was in her room singing--which precludes her eating unless she bolted down mouthfuls between verses. Cox did not see any food although she did see alcohol, so if Kelly probably ate with Blotchy Face, it was before the two of them arrived at the court. Which means she finishes eating by around 11.40 pm.

When Hutchinson gave his infamous evidence, he says he saw Kelly at 2.00 am. Not eating. So she ate before then but after 1.20 am--and she'd have to find a chippy and buy her meal before she got to eat it, which would take a while, let's say 15 minutes. Which means that it's unlikely she died at the hand of Mr Astrakhan unless he took his sweet time killing her. Which is unlikely, he seems to have killed first chance he got. He went into the room with her at 2.15 am. If he kills her within the next 15 minutes, she doesn't have time to reach the level of digestion she did reach. If she ate beforehand, around 11.30 pm, she would be well on the way to completely digesting that food and there would be almost nothing left in her stomach at 2.15/2.30 am.

Now your point is that she ate later. Had fish and chips for breakfast before being killed in the morning. After Maxwell saw her. But not long after Maxwell saw her. It's possible. However Maxwell's own account of her conversation describes Kelly saying she felt bad; she had had some beer; she had brought it up in the road. She doesn't say 'Oh Carrie, I do feel so bad. I've had some beer and food and brought it back up.' She just mentions the beer. I suspect that, if she'd had fish and chips, she would have mentioned it along with her visit to the Ringers. However I also suspect that she had a raging hangover and the thought of food would not have been welcome to her. I don't see her prancing out in the morning with a fry-up on her mind in those circumstances.

[Roy Corduroy]

...rate of digestion is only one idicator for time of death. Very helpful if you know the last time that Kelly ate but otherwise practically useless on its own. It was the described state of rigor mortis in the body, considering the circumstances of the murder, which led the medical experts to suggest a time of death somewhere between 6 and 10 am (narrowed to between 8 and 10). This seems to support Dr. Phillips' opinion. Digestion on its own is not going to be much help...

Thank you for clarifying that, Wolf. The medical scientists considered all the available info. Of course.

Roy

[Nemo]

Nice post Chava

The time of death and the time she ate are both important to the case - and both obviously connected.

If we take it that Kelly was killed at approximately 4am when a cry was heard, and she had about 2 hours to digest her last meal, then she ate at approximately 2am.

This could have been with Astrakhan who was supposedly standing near Thrawl Street when first seen, which is where a known food outlet existed that sold fish suppers.

[Ben]

Probably not, Nemo.

There's no evidence that either half of the couple were carrying any food, and I don't think a small parcel wrapped in American would have been the ideal recepticle for fish and chips.

And of course, if Hutchinson was lying...(Hey, there's a thought!)

I've heard that both sleep and alcohol will slow down the digestion process, and I'd be interested to hear some conformation (or otherwise) of this.

[Nemo]

Hi Ben

If Mary had the fish supper around 2am, then it is odd that this is around the time Hutchinson said he saw her.

Even IF astrakhan does not exist, then Mary may still have caught Hutchinson's eye as she was on her way to, or returning from, Thrawl St. where she got a fish supper, possibly with money she got from Blotchy.

Indicating, obviously, that she DID leave her room after Blotchy left.

Whether she ate the meal alone or with Blotchy, astrakhan or Hutchinson is for another thread maybe - after we agree if possible on the time she ate.

Very interesting this digestion business...

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Chava.

If that's all you have, I agree with you. But it isn't.

It’s always a dangerous thing when laypersons make pronouncements about complex medical situations especially when they base there opinion on what they think they know. In effect you have totally disregarded the rigor evidence and professional medical opinion and instead decided, as a layperson, that digestion is more important. You then rely on your own thoughts about what you think might have happened. This isn’t evidence of anything other than of your own imagination I’m afraid. Various factors including Rigor places the time of death somewhere between 6 and 10 am, I was told. Food was eaten between ½ an hour to 1½ hours before death. Those are the medical opinions I received from a group of forensic pathologists. If you believe that your opinions on complex forensic medical questions are greater or more knowledgeable than theirs I’d be curious to hear why.

Wolf.

[Observer]

Hi Nemo

The digestion of food and the clearing of the stomach are two different procedures. The orifice from the stomach into the duodenum isn't that large, it can take up to 5 hours for an average meal to completely clear the stomach,this depends on the type of food of course. Add to the fact that Kelly was in all probability lying down as she digested her food and this compounds the problem. Digesting food in a lying position not only slows down digestion ,but obviously due to the effect of gravity the digested food takes longer to clear the stomach.

Loking at the evidence, In my opinion Blotchy man not only supplied Kelly with her drink he bought her fish and chips also, and had them tucked inside his coat, this being the procedure for transporting fish and chips on a cold Autumn night for a) the fish and chips keep you warm, and b) you keep the fish and chips from going cold. Considering that Kelly was in a prone position as she digested her food, it's not unreasonable to assume that some of the food still remained in the stomach 4 hours after she comsumed it, i'd say she consumed the food around midnight, and the cry of oh murder at 4 a.m. was the time of death.

all the best

Observer

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Ben,

I've heard that... alcohol will slow down the digestion process

Alcohol actually stimulates the production of gastric juices - hydrochloric acid and enzymes - which enhances the appetite. Hence the notion of the aperitif, and probably why we get the "munchies" after a night on the razz. I would have thought that the increased amounts of acid and pepsin (enzyme which breaks down protein) in Mary's stomach would have served to have "dissolved" the fish protein more quickly, if anything, than might have been the case if she'd not had a drink that night.

The effect of alcohol on the metabolism in general might slow down the rate of stomach emptying, but that would have little or no bearing on the rate at which the fish protein would have broken down whilst confined to the stomach itself. On the contrary, I'd have thought that sloshing about in a sluggish stomach enriched with pepsin would have been more conducive to a more rapid "digestion" of proteins in general, and of fragile fish-protein in particular.

[Roy Corduroy]

Did I hear Hutch and chips?

Help is on the way.

Roy

[Chava]

Chava.



It’s always a dangerous thing when laypersons make pronouncements about complex medical situations especially when they base there opinion on what they think they know. In effect you have totally disregarded the rigor evidence and professional medical opinion and instead decided, as a layperson, that digestion is more important. You then rely on your own thoughts about what you think might have happened. This isn’t evidence of anything other than of your own imagination I’m afraid. Various factors including Rigor places the time of death somewhere between 6 and 10 am, I was told. Food was eaten between ½ an hour to 1½ hours before death. Those are the medical opinions I received from a group of forensic pathologists. If you believe that your opinions on complex forensic medical questions are greater or more knowledgeable than theirs I’d be curious to hear why.

Wolf.

Well, actually, since you bring it up, when I started the thread I pointed out that I did my own little survey. As it happens I have access to a network of people interested in cold case forensics and they are all either working or retired senior medical examiners in the United States. That question was asked two days ago, not ten years ago. The answer was 1-3 hours after eating the meal. The rigor evidence is iffy at best. You cannot look at the PM and draw any real conclusions of fact about rigor or anything else. There are too many variables at play.

There is no evidence that Kelly was seen wiping chip-fat off her chin at 2.00 am, and even if she did, she wouldn't have had time to digest to that level before she was killed if Mr A killed her. If she was killed after 9.30 am, she would have had to eat around 8-ish, keep it down, go up to the Ringers, get her beer and drink it, sick the beer--but not the fish and chips!--back up, and then get killed between 9.30 and 10.00 am. I think that's unlikely.

Love and kisses,
Chava

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi Chava and Wolf,

Sounds like the different professionals agreed on the time of digestion. Doesn't help us, though, because we don't know when she ate.

As to time of death, we are comparing an opinion (Wolf's group) to no opinion (Chava's group).

Roy