Kelly seen alive AFTER murder during lord mayors show?

[celee]

Hi,

Poor Mary Kelly, rest in peace. Okay, say Kelly was seen by Maxwell. That would open the door for some tough questions.

1. Could the Ripper have killed and mutilate Kelly in the now much shorter time frame?

2. Could the Ripper escape Kelly's room without being detected. I mean everyone and there brother was obviously on the street?

3. Was the body found that morning the remains of Kelly or someone else?

4. If the dead woman was not Kelly, then why would Kelly not come forward?

5. Was Kelly a sinister woman who was some how involved in the Murders?

All this speculation makes for fun conversation and I am all for spirited conversation. However, Kelly was Killed between Midnight and 3:45am in the morning by Jack the Ripper.

Your friend, Brad

[Nothing to see]

I've never placed any credence in Caroline Maxwell. You are all much more expert in this than me but the time line that Maxwell's story suggests just doesn't make any sense. Kelly was dead IMO long before 8am. What do we really know about Maxwell? Did she really know Kelly? Or was she after her '15 mins fame'? It's a good question about why she testified or was allowed to testify. No, I'm not into conspiracy theories but something happened there that I certainly don't understand. Kelly, I'm sure, was dead long before Maxwell 'said' she spoke to her.

[BillieHoliday]

With regard to Mary's eyes and whether they were visible, I have over the years come across reprints of the photos where I could see her left eyeball clearly although the eye was only half open.

This was after hours of studying the photo however.

[BLUE WIZZARD]

With regard to Mary's eyes and whether they were visible, I have over the years come across reprints of the photos where I could see her left eyeball clearly although the eye was only half open.

This was after hours of studying the photo however.

BillieHoliday,

What took hours to study?

BW

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all!

Once again; Mary was as tall as an average man, being 5'7" tall (170,28 in centimeters!). This fact seems to rule out any possibility of a stand-in on the bed!

And now for an adaption from the Victims introduction of this Site:

"...8:30 AM: Caroline Maxwell, a witness at the inquest and acquaintance of Kelly's, claims to have seen the deceased at around 8:30 AM, several hours after the time given by Phillips as time of death. She described her clothing and appearance in depth, and adamantly stated that she was not mistaken about the date, although she admitted she did not know Kelly very well. ..."

Maybe an overcoat lent to a "tenant" of hers, despite MJK was tall?!

All the best
Jukka

[KatBradshaw]

Wow Wolf that is a very detailed post! It is interesting and always good to question the accepted but not tested ideas. On this one however I would have thought that the evidence, both actual and circumstatial, points to Maxwell being mistaken.
What sort of time would YOU estimate that Kelly died then?? Baring in mind that the killer would have had to escape without anyone noting him having been there. It would also be interesting to ask anyone what they think of people noticiting the fire in Kelly's room at an earlier time. They wouldn't have thought it odd maybe but may well have noticed it.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Thank god a modern day specialist verdict had been given for the likely T.O.D for the murder of kelly, if one takes the time as between 8am-10 am we have the classic morning murder which I have been rambling on about since day one.
Quite simply every one was telling the truth, no conspiracy, no corruption.
Blotchy had his karoke show, and then left, Hutchinson saw Mjk, and witnessed her and Astracan, he left a while later, Mary had a nightmare[ recurring] that she was being murdered, hense the 'Oh Murder'[ heard by prater and others] Maurice Lewis saw kelly leave her room, Mrs Maxwell saw and spoke to Mary, and also saw her killer, the man dressed as a market porter, and she was killed around 9am.
Its that simple, but the vast majority of us still believe a nineteenth century doctor/doctors, and the mystery continues.
Regards Richard.

[c.d.]

What exactly does "partly digested" mean? Does it mean that the food appeared to be 10% digested or 90% digested? It seems there is a lot of leeway there. Also, was this the sole basis on which the doctors made their estimate as to the time of death?

c.d.

[BLUE WIZZARD]

Hello you all!

Once again; Mary was as tall as an average man, being 5'7" tall (170,28 in centimeters!). This fact seems to rule out any possibility of a stand-in on the bed!

And now for an adaption from the Victims introduction of this Site:

"...8:30 AM: Caroline Maxwell, a witness at the inquest and acquaintance of Kelly's, claims to have seen the deceased at around 8:30 AM, several hours after the time given by Phillips as time of death. She described her clothing and appearance in depth, and adamantly stated that she was not mistaken about the date, although she admitted she did not know Kelly very well. ..."

Maybe an overcoat lent to a "tenant" of hers, despite MJK was tall?!

All the best
Jukka

Jukka,

Mary being as tall as you say, the coat must have looked like it was on a child, really long the sleeves over her hands heh? So did they find that coat in her room after they discovered her?

You think that would have stood out to you as maybe the woman was too short for the coat?

Or maybe another woman was as tall as Mary?? and the coat looked normal, you think that the witness would have noticed that?

Maybe the witness was talking to the coat instead of Mary? which could explain why she mistakenly Identified her.

I'm not attacking you Jukka, I'm just trying to figure this out. I get sarcastic when somethings just does not make sense.

BW

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Hi Michael.

All this information, and more, appeared in an article I wrote called Screams of Murder which appeared in Ripper Notes # 9 way back in July of 2001. Don’t worry if you never read it as it was mostly either ignored (much like Brad and Nothing To See’s posts above) or trashed seeing as it went against the established order of things.

But if Bonds estimates were off by that amount, surely his other conjectures must be somewhat suspect too....

Yes, they must be. Bond’s stated reasons for fixing Kelly’s death at 1:00 am don’t make much medical sense, I was told, but then again I don’t know anyone who states that she was killed at that time. It is the testimony of Prater and Lewis which almost everyone uses to fix the time of death at around 4:00 am. The three witnesses – Maxwell, Maurice Lewis and the unnamed woman (who may, or may not have been a confusion of Maxwell) – must be either wrong, confused or lying. Interestingly, the fact that Prater changed her story several times and it appears that she was in fact lying (while Maxwell gave the same story consistently) doesn’t seem to bother anyone. Prater supports the established view so questions about her ever changing story are swept under the carpet.

Wolf.

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Simon.

If her story was so contradictory and flew in the face of "the facts" why on earth was she subpoenaed to appear at the inquest in the first place?

Exactly. The fact that Caroline Maxwell was called to give evidence must mean that she was a witness deemed to have information to give. This is a fact lost on many. The authorities didn’t have to like what she said; they didn’t have to believe what she said but they couldn’t, for some reason, disprove what she said. She was therefore allowed to lay her evidence before the jury.

What seems strange to me is that her story could have so easily been blown out of the water by the Coroner asking Bagster Phillips' opinion on MJK's time of death.

The likely reason why Maxwell was called to give evidence, and why Phillips wasn’t asked for time of death, was that there appears to have been a disagreement (“Great difference of opinion,” the Times called it) between Bond and Phillips as to when Kelly actually died. We know that Bond thought 1:00 am but Phillips appears to have thought sometime much later (perhaps as late as between 7:30 and 8:30 am according to your interpretation of the Times).

If the medical men couldn’t agree, and they didn’t, and there was at least one opinion which pointed to roughly around the time when Maxwell said she saw Kelly alive, and there appears to be, then is there any wonder that Maxwell was called to give her testimony?

Wolf.

[c.d.]

Assuming for the sake of argument that Maxwell is correct in her statement of the time, where does that leave Barnett and his alibi? Could he have accounted for his whereabouts then?

c.d.

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Kate.

On this one however I would have thought that the evidence, both actual and circumstatial, points to Maxwell being mistaken.

I would suggest that the evidence both actual and circumstantial points to Maxwell being right and I’m curious what evidence do you think points to her being wrong? After all, it was highly unlikely that she got the day wrong and she knew information pertaining only to Kelly, evidence that she knew her, and the description of the clothes she said Kelly was wearing was correct. Add to this Dr. Phillips and a group of modern forensic specialists suggesting that Kelly was likely murdered at a time around/after Maxwell said she talked to her.

What sort of time would YOU estimate that Kelly died then??

I don’t estimate time of death as I’m not a forensic pathologist. I only pass on what I was told by forensic pathologists.

Allow me to also point out, as SPE once did, that I wasn’t the first person to do this. James Tully, author of the book Prisoner 1167, The Man Who Was Jack the Ripper, asked the opinion of Dr F. D. M. Hocking, County Pathologist for Cornwall for over fifty years, on the time of death for Mary Kelly. Hocking’s opinion was that “death would have occurred at about 9 a.m.” This also falls within the 6 to 10 (narrowed down to 8 to 10) time frame given by the experts I consulted.

Wolf.

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

c.d.

What exactly does "partly digested" mean? Does it mean that the food appeared to be 10% digested or 90% digested? It seems there is a lot of leeway there.

The “leeway” is somewhere between ½ an hour and 1½ hours. The phrase “partly digested” comes from Bond and is not precise enough, I was told, to fix time of death. That is why I was given a time frame, as I posted, of somewhere between ½ an hour and 1½ hours (with the likely time being less than 1½ hours). The way I understand it fish and potatoes are relatively easy to digest and I was told that digestion would begin after about ½ an hour and the food would likely be fully digested after about 2 hours.

Also, was this the sole basis on which the doctors made their estimate as to the time of death?

No. Information such as Bond’s description of rigor mortis, his description of the warmth of the body, digestion, the high and low temperatures for the 9th of November, Bond’s description of the body in situ, the post mortem results, Bond’s report to Robert Anderson, Dr. Phillips’s inquest testimony, the picture of the body, the size of the room, the possibility of a fire in the room, the fact that the window was broken were all information given to the pathologists.

Wolf.

[perrymason]

Hi again Wolf,

Im ashamed to admit my interest only began about 4 years ago, so Ive got a LOT of back reading to do.....anything I know is from here, maybe 7-8 books, lots of press and dissertation material....I havent read enough from the people who step back from the entirety of all this and shed light on aspects of people and events. Ive learned tons here in discussion, by stumbling here and there....and its the members and friends here that I suppose help me form some opinions.

I said all that.....because I really wanted to say this.....I have never considered Caroline Maxwell or any of the Mayors Days morning witnesses of any import. And I cant say I still feel that way.

Thanks for the perspectives.

This inevitably leads down slippery slopes when considering her identification as the victim, and why some events were...I have to imagine....orchestrated. Like Simon finding the Star said Barnetts view of Mary for his ID was from the window. If that is so.....then MJK1 is what he saw, or someone entered the room to lift the flesh off Marys eyes and sockets for him. He ID's eyes......they are not visible anywhere in MJK1.

Maybe McCarthy forcing open a door he had knowledge how to unlock without doing so should have signaled trouble.

All the best Wolf, Simon, all...