Maxwell's Gal

[Roy Corduroy]

There was previous discussion of Mrs. Maxwell saying she saw Mary Kelly the next morning.

https://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4926/5299.html

Mrs. Maxwell's sighting conflicts with the estimated time of death, Dr. Bond: 1 or 2 am. Dr. Phillips: 5 or 6 am.

A map by Rob Clack showing the proximity of Maxwell's residence at 14 Dorset St to Miller's Court.

[richardnunweek]

Hello Roy,
A excellent thead, although discussed over the years on previous Casebook forums, it is a important one.
Mrs Maxwell is the most intresting witness in Ripperology, I would say its about 80/20 in favour of her being mistaken in some form, even though she gave sworn testomony at the inquest, and attended her funeral.
I accepted her account way back in the middle 70s, the reason for this is the following quote, which apparently came from a since dissapeared, part of her statement.
I have never seen that quote since, and I wrote to Colin Wilson refering to it, he also had never read the following.
Quote.. Her eyes looked queer , as if she was suffering from a heavy cold' .
The nearest to that came from McCormack quoting.. All muffled up , as with cold'
The reason why I felt that coming from Maxwell was important, as it could imply that Mjk had a cold that night, which would explain the words Hutchinson overheard her saying whilst with Astracan.'Oh I have lost my hankerchief.
There are other explanations of course , such as a hanky being a victorian contraception method, or a peice of grit in her eye, but as the two comments above were made by two different people observing kelly at two different times, one must ask the obvious.
If Mrs Maxwell was not mistaken about the day, which apparently she was not[ note the police checks], and she was not mistaken about the identity of the person she saw, which she was not[ note the inquest when she had the entire weekend to realize any error, then in order to have noticed a possible presence of a cold in the person she refered to as the victim , who was incidently wearing clothing found in room 13, Mary Kelly appears to have been very much alive at least up to 9am on the morning of the 9th.
Thoughts please.
Regards Richard.

[Roy Corduroy]

Quote.. Her eyes looked queer , as if she was suffering from a heavy cold'

Thank you, Richard.

Where did you hear the quote attributed to Mrs. Maxwell?

Roy

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Before Caroline Maxwell opened her mouth at the inquest, Coroner Roderick Macdonald knew exactly what she was going to say [9th November witness statement]. Hence his cautionary remarks.

If Macdonald thought Maxwell was lying/mistaken/hallucinating, all he had to do to blow her story out of the water and settle the time of MJK's death was put Doctor Phillips' opinion on the official record.

But Coroner Macdonald never asked the question. The inquest closed with the T.O.D. left up in the air.

Why?

Regards,

Simon

[Scott Nelson]

I thought she was killed when she was banged on the head.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Roy,
With reference to that article, that is the 64 dollar question, in the early seventies during the three day week which most of us then had to endure, one had enough spare time to research, and I did a whole lot of it, reading many press clippings and any article I could get my hands on.
I was on my way to Hove greyhounds by train and took some material with me, it was then that I read what i interpreted to be part of Mrs Maxwells statement, which I had not come across before, it apparently was whilst she was interviewed about the woman she allegedly saw clothing, that her 'Appearance of a cold' was mentioned.
Within a short space of time, I realized a connection between that and Hutchinsons statement, and a few days later wrote to Colin Wilson, mentioning this point, and he replied 'Unfortuantely we cannot prove that Kelly had a cold that night, however if so, what you have mentioned what create a bombshell that would shatter the case.'
So the fact is what happened to that article/clipping whatever, i simply and honestly have not a clue, I have pleaded on Casebook many times, for someone to back my words up , but alas rather like the elusive radio programme concerning George Hutchinson that I heard back in the mid 70s I appear to stand alone.
Regards Richard.

[Hellrider]

Let's assume Mrs. Maxwell was right and Kelly looked like she had caught a serious cold. Would that change so much about the case, except for increasing the likeness that Hutchinson actually heard her speak about a handkerchief?

I think the people that dismiss Hutchinson's evidence do so for a variety of reasons, but not necessarily for the handkerchief thing alone. Is there anything else that would change from your point if view if Kelly had had a serious cold?

[richardnunweek]

Hi Hellrider,
The main significance of the possibility that Mjk was suffering from a cold, would be that it would go a long way in a possible acceptance of both Hutchinsons, and Maxwells accounts.
Because if two witnesses, independant of each other could mention one common factor that had significance to the other, then it would point in the direction of a daylight murder.
To simplify.
How could Mrs Maxwell see a dead woman, ie. if the medical reports were accurate.
Answer. They were wrong....
Regards Richard.

[miss marple]

who?

The trouble with Maxwell is her description of Mary seems so wrong. She describes her as a ' pleasant little woman, rather stout' and 'not a notorious character. Maxwell was not a close friend and did not know her very well. It sounds like a different Mary
All other descriptions of Mary from her friends,are at odds with that. She does seem to have been a notorious character and distinctive looking. Tall, fair as a lily, waist length hair, pretty, a temper, liked her own way, could get in to a fight when drunk. A well known prostitute before she met Joe, if true that her pitch was the Ten Bells and she would scrap anyone who interferred with her pitch, and she first picked up Joe on the Commercial Rd, that could have been at the Ten Bells.
The woman Maxwell describes at the inquest seems quite ill, a bad hangover can also give you a cold as your resistance is low. She says she has thrown up her beer [ vomit in the street]and has had the horrors of drink upon her as she has been drinking some days past.
Maxwell woman sounds in too much of a state. I cannot not see how that matches Hutch description, the handerchief incident with ASTRAKHAN MAN sounds like flirting, not a catarred up women wanting to blow her nose, that is ridiculous.A handerchief had multi uses was also a neckscarf to tie round the neck, costers wore them, famous for their distintive patterns and bright colours, they were huge.
If this woman has been on a binge for a few days it does not fit in with the pattern of Kelly's last few days.
I don't see how it is possible for Kelly to be killed after 8.30 in the morning. Maxwell woman would have to go back to Millers; Court undress fold her clothes up neatly get in to bed, but not sleep, still probably vomiting, probably hallucinating, unable to rest. The killer would enter MILLERS court in daylight and find a disturbed restless ill woman, I m sure in that case it would not be a cry of OH murder but a loud scream or too. I cannot see anyone taking that risk and time to kill after 8.30.
Either Bond was wrong or Maxwell was wrong. I cannot see Bond being wrong, he had plenty of experience at estimating death times, and seeing dead bodies.
Maxwell is at such varience with everyone else that I have to believe she was wrong.
Miss Marple

[Ben]

With all due respect to Richard, the "Mary had a cold" account currently has no provenance whatsoever. If you remember reading something once, by all means try to find it again, but until that time, it cannot possible be accepted as evidence, especially if it's intended to be used to "support" two of the more dubious accounts from the Kelly investigation.

The two witnesses could not have been "independant of each other", since Maxwell's account was already in the public domain by the time Hutchinson came forward.

Best regards,
Ben

[richardnunweek]

Hello Ben,
Agreed , without such a document my account is worthless, but I can only mention what I saw, and what I considered important.
I appreciate that Maxwells account , and Hutchinsons account are a few days apart, but are you suggesting that he put the hankerchief part in his statement to give credence, because he remembered Maxwell mentioning a possible cold?
Regards Richard.

[Ben]

Hi Richard,

No, I think he introduced the red handkerchief into his account because he had the Lawende description of a "red neckerchief" in mind from the published Eddowes inquest.

Best regards,
Ben

[Fisherman]

Ben writes:
"I think he introduced the red handkerchief into his account because he had the Lawende description of a "red neckerchief" in mind from the published Eddowes inquest."

That would be an odd thing to do, would it not, at least if he tried to pull off something that made the coppers believe in Lawendes man and Astrakhan man being one and the same - they were so distinctly different in every other detail that I fail to see that the police would buy it.
Unless you mean that the hanky just stuck in the back his mind..?

Fisherman

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
How about Gh simply told the truth, he saw a fancy dude pick up Mjk, followed them out of curiosity, was close enough to witness verbal interaction, when hearing about his friend/aquaintance being the Latest Ripper victim he pondered if he should get involved, but felt he had to, albeit on the monday evening.
Astracan therefore did exist, and that being the case is a major suspect, however because of morning sightings he may not have been her killer, unless he was still in kellys room since 2am.
A lot has been mentioned about the observation of the colour of the hankerchief as in red, but surely people of that period in poor lighting gave descriptions such as 'Saw Mrs smith last night , she had a lovely blue bonnet on and a new red shawl'..... or did they say 'Saw mrs smith last night, she had a nice bonnet on and a new shawl'
Regards Richard.

[Ben]

That would be an odd thing to do, would it not, at least if he tried to pull off something that made the coppers believe in Lawendes man and Astrakhan man being one and the same

It's a sound observation, Fish, but consider this:

If Hutchinson had reason to be concerned about the prospect of the police findering a local Gentile Joe as a direct consequence of Lawende's evidence, a superficial comparison with the Astrakhan man via a "mutually supportive" red reg would have been just the ticket. It would have introduced the prospect that the ostensibly local shabby bloke from Church Passage was actually just "dressing down" for the district, but still retained the "incriminating" red hand/neckerchief.

When Ian Huntley introduced himself to the police in the wake of the girls' murders, he stated that he had seen a man behaving suspiciously in the district; a man who drove a dirty red Ford Fiesta. Huntley's own car? A dirtly red Ford Fiesta.

Red herrings - quite literally.

Best regards,
Ben