Could Mary Jane Read or Write?

[perrymason]

Does anyone know if she learned any French either before or during her brief sojourn there as a "consort" I suppose? She did affect the "Marie-Jeanette" bit it appears.

We know that Barnett read the news to her....so it would seem at least reading English is missing from her skill sets. How often would the level of ability to read or write be interconnected...meaning how often would we find people with only one of those 2 skills?

Im asking, not baiting... ...any knowledgeable input welcome.

Best regards all.

[Jane Coram]

Hi Michael,

Unfortunately we can't even be sure that she ever went to France - as you know the only information we have about her earlier life was from Joe and for all we know Mary was telling fanciful fibs to make herself look more colourful, which might have included using the name Marie Jeanette. I doubt we'll ever know if she was telling the truth. Basically it's how long is a bit of string, when it comes to anything in Mary's past.

I don't think we can even say that she couldn't read English, although of course it's possible she couldn't. There are other valid reasons that Mary might have asked Joe to read to her:

She was short sighted and couldn't afford or wouldn't wear glasses

There was only one candle in the room (good evidence for that) and Joe liked to read the paper and needed to be beside it, so Mary asked him to read out anything interesting.

Or Mary just liked Joe reading to her, because it was an established bond of affection back in the LVP, when dad would read to the rest of the family as a matter of routine. The LVP equivalent of sitting round the telly watching East Enders.

Usually reading and writing went together as far as I know, as the school system at that time insisted on the 3 R's (although God knows how anyone was supposed to learn anything when Arithmetic was given the initial 'R')

When I was a kid, I knew several older Irish women and they were all fairly literate. One of them were about eighty in 1960, which means she was probably educated in the LVP in Ireland and she learnt to read and write at Sunday school, using Bible story books. If they did particularly well, they were rewarded with a little postcard of a Bible scene or a die cut scrap of a Bible character to put in their Bible.

As a Catholic, it would seem quite likely that Mary went to Sunday school and if she did go, she would certainly have learnt to read and write as that was their secondary task, after teaching the children the catechism.

There are an awful lot of if's and but's with Mary aren't there!

Much love

Jane

xxxxx

[Supe]

The business about Mary not being able to read because Joe read to her of an evening comes up every few months yet, as Jane just explained it was the normal way of spending an evening from paleolithic times, when someone would tell stories around a fire, up until phonographs, radios, televisions and so on intruded upon domestic life.

As it is, there are examples of this throughout Victorian literature; a scene in Great Expectations immediately comes to mind. For that matter, there is an interesting letter in Evans and Rumbelow's Scotland Yard Investigates in which a woman in Staffordshire wrote to the police: While sitting sewing and listening to my husband reading the London atrocities last evening a renewed and strong Presentiment came to my mind . . .

If that woman could write a letter and use "presentiment" then she was obviously quite literate, yet as in countless other households in England, far less the world, she was being read to of an evening.

We don't know whether Mary Jane Kelly was literate or not, but to suggest she was not because she did what was normal for the time is to take a markedly ahistorical view of events.

Don.

[Mike Covell]

On occasion I read to my wife, she can read, and had a good education, but if she has had a tough day, or is busy, she will ask me to read. More often than not this is from the newspaper, usually from local reports that feature me! But in the past I have sat and read out lengthy tomes to her, and her to me.

The only source we have, that Barnett read to Kelly, was from Barnett himself, so we are just assuming he actually read the papers to her.

[Roy Corduroy]

Pardon me in advance if this has been addressed. In the 1881 Census was this entry: Whitechapel Infirmary - Mary Kelly, 23 born Whitechapel, occupation Prostitute

Mr. Hyde said this: Mary Ann Kelly born 27th, April,1859 Christened 22nd.May,1859 at Saint Leonards, Shoreditch Mother, Emma. Father, John Kelly.

Can we prove OR disprove -
(a) the person born 1859 was same person as in the 1881 census?
(b) The murder victim Mary Kelly was the same as either/both of these entries?

Roy

[Mr.Hyde]

1891 census could be of help.If she shows up it would disprove.

[Mitch Rowe]

We are all the same.

If you want to know what the people were like at that time just look to your own neighborhood. Or better yet. Look to the trailer park down the street. The types of people and couples living there are the same no matter where you live or what time you live in.

[Chava]

Everything we know about Barnett's life with Kelly, we know from Barnett's account. I have no wish to intrude upon a domestic idyll, but I have to point out that it was in Barnett's best interest to describe as happy, tranquil and domestic a life as possible. This is not to say that I believe Kelly was illiterate. I don't know whether she was or was not. The exploits of the Ripper were described in the tabloids and I'm pretty sure people would have gathered to hear them read aloud in the court as and when people got hold of newspapers, in the same way people stood in the streets outside tv stores in the old days and watched the programs.

[perrymason]

Thanks Janie and Don and Mike for addressing my query on her ability to read English based on Barnett's portrayal of their life together, I recall my mother knitting after diner while my father read her the paper occasionally myself.

I am still curious about the second question....would it be common to find that people who cant write, read? Or vice versa. In terms of literacy in the LVP or even 2009 for that matter... are reading and writing somewhat conjoined? Are you apt to find both or neither... or just as often... only 1 of the 2 abilities?

I havent studied Illiteracy so I realize that may seem a naive question....but its seems to me as a layman that they would most often be either equally absent or present.... like interdependant skills.

Best regards folks.