Could Mary Jane Read or Write?

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Graham!

Has anyone considered that she may have had impaired vision and couldn't afford a pair of specs?

Graham

I can quite sincerely say, that in 2004 -while visiting this Casebook website for the very first time(s) - my very, very first conclusion about MJK's behaviour with Joe reading to her was: "she would have needed her glasses!"

And I still find it possible, that she could have been short-sighted to some degree! Since I am far-sighted myself, I personally cannot say anything sure about that, though!

All the best
Jukka

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Chava!

It's amazing, how brilliantly she hid her real past! I personally think, that it shows some wittiness in her character. Maybe having an apartment too.

But the most amazing thing is, that she wasn't recognised anywhere for sure. I mean, she was a tall woman (5'7" or 170,28 centimeters) in the contemporary standards. Almost as tall as the men of the time!

What it comes to the letter she received from Ireland and Joe not mentioning about it, MJK probably read - or tried to read - that one herself and burnt it in the fire-place! Because the letter would have revealed too much about her real backround!

All the best
Jukka

[claire]

I think you're right on this, Supe...I don't think there is anything that can be inferred from Mary's possibly being read to apart from the fact that she lived in the 1880s.

Then again, of course, it's possible that she learned to read and write in Welsh, and found it a pain to do in English.

[Fisherman]

John Bennett writes:

"I used to have a girlfriend who was university educated (Oxford), was good in her field (education), yet used to like me to read stuff to her (newspaper reports, bits of articles, e-mails, anything). Not for any other reason than she liked being 'read to'.
Maybe we're looking at a similar thing with Mary Kelly?"

...and Don adds:

"Why is it so difficult to accept what was a way of life for almost everyone back then and instead try to come up with reasons why Joe was reading to Mary? Is it really that difficult to realize that everything Joe and Mary did before November 9, 1888, have to be abnormal, unnatural or somehow linked to the murder?"

These, I think, are sound posts - the habit of reading to each other was much more common in the old days, and let´s not forget that there were reasons for it too. One such reason was that a household like Marys and Joes would not offer more than one lamp to read by, and the reading time would have been after work, when it was more often than not too dark to read by daylight. It´s not like today, when anybody who wants to have a read can light a lamp beside the cosy recliner chair and pick up a paper.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Chava]

Yes, but if Kelly really couldn't read--I'm not saying I know she couldn't--that might tend to corroborate her tale of being born in Ireland. As I understand it, a lot of the more rural areas of Ireland did not have the kind of schools for the 'lower classes' that mainland Britain had after education reform earlier in the century. Just about everyone there could read well enough to read a newspaper by 1888, but my information is that the incidence of illiteracy was higher in Ireland at the time. So that's where I was going with this thread...

[Fisherman]

Fair enough, Chava! But bear in mind that it was said that Kelly left Ireland for Wales at a very low age, and also do not forget that Kelly is often described as being a pinhole or two above the wretched creatures with whom she shared the squalor of Millers Court. It all seems to point in the opposite direction of your suggestion, as far as I´m concerned!

The best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Then again, of course, it's possible that she learned to read and write in Welsh.

Unlikely, Claire - given that the government had ostensibly deprecated the teaching of Welsh in schools in Wales from 1847 onwards. Although Welsh still flourished as a spoken language in many parts of Wales, its status as a written (and read) medium suffered a huge blow. From the 1850s onwards, written Welsh was largely the preserve of academics and the congregations of non-conformist (Protestant) chapels. Together, these managed to keep the written language alive to the extent whereby Welsh language newspapers still enjoyed a modest circulation in some areas. If an Irish/Catholic immigrant like Kelly had picked up Welsh as a spoken language, it's very unlikely that she'd have been taught to read and write it.

[claire]

Yeah, thanks, Sam...just before I read your post I was reading about the Welsh Not practice...I think that particular abomination was dying out by the time MJK got to school (if she did), but, yes, a Welsh medium education seems very unlikely...my apologies for an ill-informed suggestion. I should have known better since my daughter went to a Welsh language primary: my knowledge, by contrast, is restricted to road signs! Thanks for your wisdom (once again)

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Claire!

Don't worry! My wisdom of the Welsh language is limited to some variations of one Welsh sentence I asked from my friend to a short-story a long time ago (since I don't even know the word "thank you" in Welsh, I will say "kiitos" (the Finnish version!) for him!)

All right, now to the subject; I agree with you, that at the time it probably was too hard to reach a medium-education for an Irish-immigrant's working class girl in Wales.

But... since she could hide her backround so damn well, it's quite possible, that she was a self-made-woman in the educational sense!

All the best
Jukka

[Sam Flynn]

Yeah, thanks, Sam...just before I read your post I was reading about the Welsh Not practice...I think that particular abomination was dying out by the time MJK got to school

Regrettably, Claire, the Welsh Not still hung around our necks, so to speak. For those who don't know about the "WN", please read on...

The level of education was actually rather high in 19th Century Wales compared to many parts of England, largely due to some excellent Sunday Schools. However, a Coventry MP named William Williams (ironically he was born in Wales, albeit Anglicised Monmouthshire) made some scathing remarks about the Welsh language in Parliament, the result of which was that government inspectors descended on Wales in 1846/47 to assess the children.

The school inspectors, being monoglot English, went about this task by interviewing often monoglot Welsh-speaking children and asking them questions in... English! The poor children didn't stand a chance, and the inspectors' reports (known as the "Blue Books"), based as they were on such hopelessly skewed data and "loaded" investigative techniques, painted an unfairly bad picture of the level of education amongst Welsh children.

Given that the inspectors had come there ostensibly to help improve education in Wales, but instead ended up scapegoating the Welsh language and unjustly condemning the children, the whole sad episode has gone down in Welsh history as "Brâd y Llyfrau Gleision" (the "Treachery of the Blue Books"). This report reinforced long-standing prejudices against the language; moves were made to remove Welsh from education, and children were taught exclusively in English.

In some instances, children were physically punished if caught speaking Welsh in school, and children were encouraged to tell on their friends if they heard them speaking Welsh. Now, this dreadful practice wasn't particularly new. In some parts of Wales, the "Welsh Not" was employed - the use of which had started in the late 18th Century.

The "Welsh Not" (as Claire will know) was a small wooden plaque, with the letters "WN" carved or burnt into it, and a length of string looped through it. This would be slung around the neck of the first child heard speaking Welsh that day, and it was in his/her interests to pass it on to the next child he/she heard using the language... and so forth, throughout the school day. The child caught wearing this grotesque pendant at the end of the day was given a sound thrashing by the teacher.

The 1847 government report, in fairness, considered the "Welsh Not" barbaric, but did little to prevent its use. In fact, the net result of the Blue Book report was to increase the prejudice against Welsh in general, and its repercussions had an effect in the schools, the workplace and at a domestic level, too. Some families, believing the propaganda, shunned the language in case their children grew up "backward" as a result.

These betrayals by family, friends and authority figures instilled in many Welsh-speakers a feeling of inferiority, of being embarrassed of their mother tongue - an effect which persisted for almost a century, and which no doubt contributed to the erosion of Welsh at all levels of society and in many walks of life. A shameful episode in British history, all round.

[caz]

However, a Coventry MP named William Williams (ironically he was born in Wales, albeit Anglicised Monmouthshire) made some scathing remarks about the Welsh language in Parliament, the result of which was that government inspectors descended on Wales in 1846/47 to assess the children.

Hi Sam,

He should have saved his scathing remarks for the imagination shown by his parents:

"Well Mr and Mrs Williams, what are you going to call this little bundle of joy then?"

"We thought William would go quite nicely."

I suppose we should spare a thought for the offspring of Mr and Mrs Pattercake, who owned the bakery next door.

Love,

Caz
X

[truebluedub]

If she was a Catholic then isn't possible she may have been thought to read by some one trying to proselytize her? I don't know if it was the done thing in Wales but it was definitely the done thing in Ireland. For example the ghost story writer J.S. Le Fanu had a sister who tried to teach literacy in Gaelic in Abington, Co. Limerick.

Chris Lowe

[Chava]

Gareth, that's horrible! I wonder if similar atrocities took place in Ireland or northern Scotland amongst Gaelic-speaking children. They were so inflexible in those days--must speak English only; must write with the right hand only...

[Sam Flynn]

He should have saved his scathing remarks for the imagination shown by his parents:

"Well Mr and Mrs Williams, what are you going to call this little bundle of joy then?"

"We thought William would go quite nicely."

I suppose we should spare a thought for the offspring of Mr and Mrs Pattercake, who owned the bakery next door.

Nice one, Caz - missed it the first time round! For info, people named "William Williams" often attracted the local nickname of "Billy Twice"

Thinks: perhaps there's a hint about the origin of "Johnto" ["John Two", as in "John (Kelly) the Second"?] there.

[Sam Flynn]

Gareth, that's horrible! I wonder if similar atrocities took place in Ireland or northern Scotland amongst Gaelic-speaking children. They were so inflexible in those days--must speak English only; must write with the right hand only...

It wouldn't surprise me, Chava.