The Night She Died

[BLUE WIZZARD]

Ben,

I was reading a post by Sam Flynn and he said that the latch was automatic, in that it would lock shut after the door had closed, he also said that it was the standard lock of the time in 1888, So Mary would not be fiddling with the lock. Mary was aware that Jack was out there, so why take chances with an unlocked door?

BW


BW

[BLUE WIZZARD]

C.D.,

You said, "It doesn't mean that Mrs. Maxwell was lying. She simply could have been mistaken"

How could she be mistaken? She was talking to Mary.

If you saw your neighbor and talked to her, then you told the police that you saw your neighbor and she told you that she was vomiting on the sidewalk because of bad booze, not to mention you saw the vomit.

Would it be safe to say, that maybe you were mistaken as to whom you were talking to?

BW

[Ben]

Hi BW,

The door would shut automatically but only if the latch was disengaged. When Kelly arrived home with her Blotchy companion, it is clear that the door had been placed on the latch, or else she'd have been forced to reach in through the window to disengage it. Since no window actics were observed, the door was obviously latched, in which case it wouldn't have shut automatically behind her.

Mary was aware that Jack was out there, so why take chances with an unlocked door?

Well, the same can be said about venturing out to meet strange men.

Best regards,
Ben

[BLUE WIZZARD]

Ben,

If she let her customer in with the intention of entertaining, she would have locked the door, so as not to be disturbed, so when her customer left, and wither she let him out or he let himself out, the door should have latched automatically.

Now with Jack and Joe out there, it is not a good idea to leave the door unlatched.

The difference between Mary and the woman walking the streets is that she was going to sleep, very vulnerable.

BW

[Ben]

If she let her customer in with the intention of entertaining, she would have locked the door, so as not to be disturbed

Why would anyone disturb her, BW?

We don't know that she was in the habit of locking her door when in the company of a client. We do know that the door was both unlocked and on the latch when last we hear about it on the night of her murder, and that it may have remained so on account of Kelly's reported intoxicated condition.

The difference between Mary and the woman walking the streets is that she was going to sleep, very vulnerable.

She'd be much more so on the streets where, up until that time, that killer had been dispatching his victims.

Ben

[c.d.]

Hi BW,

Mrs. Maxwell had not known Mary very long at that point. Although it is possible that she mistook someone else for Mary, I think the simplest and more reasonable explanation is that she was simply mistaken as to the day and time when this conversation took place. Throw in the fact that she was probably quite shaken by having a neighbor brutally murdered and you can see why she might have been mistaken.

The problem we have is that Mrs. Maxwell's story sharply conflicts with the time of death estimate given by the doctors. Since we know that the doctors had vital information available to them such as body temperature and the onset of rigor mortis, they were probably in the ballpark with their estimate. Since they both can't be right, I think the best explanation is that Mrs. Maxwell was simply mistaken as to when she last saw Mary.

c.d.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
For as many years as I can remember, long before Casebook, I have heard the same old explanations.
She was mistaken,
Wrong person.
Wrong day.
She was lying.
The doctors reports are the most reliable.
The police checked out Mrs Maxwells account of returning plates on the 9th, and was found to be true, also the place where she obtained milk verified that she had called that morning [ first time in a long time].
She stated that she was returning the plates when she observed kelly, and as her statement was given just a few hours later, are we saying that she was mistaken.
Wrong person.
She said she addressed her by name, she described her as stout, albeit little woman, surely she would have had the entire weekend to realize that she had identified the wrong person , before addressing the coroner.
But she stood by her sighting , even though she was told to think carefully.
Proberly, along with Hutchinson the most important witnesses in the whole ripper case, but the vast majority of us dismiss them .
Why?
Regards Richard.

[perrymason]

...We don't know that she was in the habit of locking her door when in the company of a client.

Ben

Hi again Ben,

Not to nitpick...at least nitpick without cause... ...we in fact do not know whether Mary ever had a client in room 13....let alone how she would leave her door if she did.

Because you were so helpful with this issue with me a few moons ago Ben, for anyone who is wondering..., the spring latch usage terminology is the opposite of what you might first imagine,..it is "on" the latch to prevent the door from locking, and "off" the latch to have it lock when closed. So the mechanism must be manually engaged to lock automatically when the door is closed. This is intended to be a secondary lock, but the key to the door lock itself was lost, so it became the sole locking mechanism.

On Carrie Maxwell, by her own account she had known Mary 4 months or so and spoken only twice. We do not know if those exchanges were quickly passing each other and a "good day", or whether it was a "hello" and wave across the street....but we do know that based on that Mary is not likely going to call her "Carrie", which Maxwell says the woman she met did, nor is her relationship with Mary one that would take precedence over the witnesses that did know Mary very well, were in the courtyard that night, and provide no evidence that Mary ever left her room after entering it with Blotchy Face...let alone that she survived the night hours. When the medical evidence concludes a rough TOD, based on the state of the body's rigor, the stomach contents and the known digestive processes....it eliminates a death that occurs during daylight hours.

So when she takes the stand Monday, they already knew by the findings that Maxwell was mistaken or lying. I believe the opening taunt by the coroner was intended to intimidate a liar...which she evidently wasnt. But she was not correct either.

And for Richard, I believe the other witness that is discredited in less than 3 days suffers from a similar malady....no proven relationship with the deceased at all...and no direct corroboration of his story. If one cannot prove that someone even knew someone else, why would they accept that conversations with first names, between the parties, took place?

Best regards all.

[c.d.]

Hi Richard,

I think the answer is simple -- because the doctors and her cannot both be right. It comes down to who is more likely to be mistaken.

c.d.

[perrymason]

Hi Richard,

I think the answer is simple -- because the doctors and her cannot both be right. It comes down to who is more likely to be mistaken.

c.d.

I believe thats it in a nutshell. Witnesses that knew Mary and lived in the court, a doctors opinion on TOD, with impeccable credentials....vs two East Enders who both claim first name relationships and encounters with the deceased that no-one corroborates....nor can it be proven they even knew Mary at all.

Its not unfair or unkind to Maxwell and Hutchinson...in Hutch's case he does stir the pot fairly dramatically with his input, but neither story can be authority confirmed using known data....like us assuming Hutch is the Wideawake man from Sarahs story, but no mention that the police used that as criteria to validate his story.

Cheers all.

[Chava]

Here's something to know about those kinds of locks. You can set them either way. If you use the mechanism that we in the North East used to call the 'sneck' to keep the door open, then it won't lock behind you and will swing open to a touch. However if you use the spring to close the door, with you inside it, and then put it on the sneck, then no key will open the door. It's permanently locked until you take it off the sneck.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
One question.
If medical reports of that period are that reliable [ although the wrong thread] what time was Annie chapman killed ?.
Do we discount Mrs Longs account and timings, and our friend Cadoche, and Richardsons account..?
Regards Richard.

[BLUE WIZZARD]

The funeral of the murdered woman Kelly has once more been postponed. Deceased was a Catholic, and the man Barnett, with whom she lived, and her landlord, Mr. M.Carthy, desired to see her remains interred with the ritual of her Church. The funeral will, therefore, take place tomorrow [19 Nov] in the Roman Catholic Cemetery at Leytonstone. The hearse will leave the Shoreditch mortuary at half-past twelve.

Mr. M.Carthy, desired to see her remains interred with the ritual of her Church.

Why does this matter to him? How many landlords have you heard of that would care what happens to the corpse after a killing or a death in the apartment?

rigor mortis Post-mortem corporal rigidity, stiff stiffness Pathology Board-like contraction of skeletal muscles that first appears in jaw and other short muscles–eg, of hand, 2-4 hrs after death; RM later appears on the trunk and extremities, peaks at 24-48 hrs; it disappears in the same order as it developed.

Post-mortem

Dr. Thomas Bond, a distinguished police surgeon from A Division was called in on the Mary Kelly murder.

I have read the report and there is no mention of rigor mortis.
If there is no mention of rigor mortis, then how long was she dead?

BW

[BLUE WIZZARD]

How many times do you have to see your neighbor, as well as talk to that same neighbor, about the vomit on the sidewalk that you are looking at as well, and the neighbor is telling you it was bad booze? And then you make a mistake as to whom you were talking to?????

And besides that, how many 25-year-old attractive prostitutes were living in the same neighborhood? a beautiful woman lives in your neighborhood and you would make a mistake in identifying her?

I thought Mary was the talk of the neighborhood with her style of dress and hat. I would assume that the whole neighborhood would know who she was. Not just the people that lived up stairs from her.

BW

Excuse me for using the word neighborhood so many times, I'm in a hurry and I have to go somewhere.

[Chava]

Forgetting whether the blanket was rolled or placed or whatever, are we sure that it's a blanket we're looking at? I was checking out the pic on the Kelly info board and so looked at the blanket in situ as it were. It seems awfully small for a blanket somehow. And I now think that the white thing is part of the sheet that has gotten pushed over on to it.

Having reread the PM, I think he must have waited until she had completely exsanguinated before he started work. I don't know how long that takes. Anyone got any ideas?