The Night She Died

[Nemo]

If Mary's clothes were in front of the fire, I think they were wet. This indicates to me that Mary was out in the rain.

Otherwise the clothes would impede the warmth of the fire...

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
The trouble with us attempting to understand where articles were, and where they might have been is we really have no idea what kellys room interior looked like, only sketches showing the layout , but no photographic evidence of the crime scene apart from the gruesome ones.
We can only go by the sketches, and they do show boots near the fireplace, in such a position that they proberly were placed there for the purpose of drying, that being the case, it would appear that Kelly was alive when the fire was alight, as a non lit fire would be no use for boots to be dried, and placed facing the grate.
Her clothing also, according to the sketch I am refering too, shows what appears to be clothing draped across a partially broken backed chair, again handy by the fire if they needed drying , which apparently if [ as i believe] it was raining at 2am, and 8am, a journey out would result in wet clothes.
So what do you all believe the most likely time the fire was lit, if Kelly herself lit it to dry wet clothing?
At 1am-3am
8am -
Regards Richard.

[Chava]

Richard, can you give us a link to the sketches?

Best,
Chava

[BLUE WIZZARD]

If they were undergarments, perhaps she just wanted them to be warm when she put them on in the morning, seeing how it was getting colder outside.

How can any one tell when the fire was lit? Or how long it was burning.

BW

[BLUE WIZZARD]

How do we know that the kettle spout was not damaged weeks earlier?

Or that Mary may have thrown a couple of her items in the fire because she was running out of available fuel for the fire; it was after all a cold damp night.

If she did not have a client/boyfriend there, I would think that she would have been dressed warmer for the night.

BW

[BLUE WIZZARD]

Robert,

You said in Post 998 "I believe that the killer turned up later."

Now she would have had to let him in or he knew how to open the door from the window.

If the later were true, then why is she wearing skimpy cloths to bed?

I believe she was entertaining a guest/boyfriend.

BW

[Ben]

Hi BW,

Now she would have had to let him in or he knew how to open the door from the window.

Not necessaily. He could also have gained entry simply by pushing the latched door open. I'd say that a night-shirt or chemise is fairly standard bedwear, especially for a small room being heated by a fire. Either that or she had succumbed to sleep in that condition after entertaining Blotchy, and a third possibility is that the killer removed any outer layers of clothing himself to gain access to the thorax.

Best regards,
Ben

[BLUE WIZZARD]

Ben,

I thought that when the cops arrived the could not open the door because of the latch, So how could the intruder just push the door open?

BW

[perrymason]

Hi BW,
Not necessaily. He could also have gained entry simply by pushing the latched door open. I'd say that a night-shirt or chemise is fairly standard bedwear, especially for a small room being heated by a fire. Either that or she had succumbed to sleep in that condition after entertaining Blotchy, and a third possibility is that the killer removed any outer layers of clothing himself to gain access to the thorax.

Best regards,
Ben

Hi Ben,

What that presumes is that after letting Blotchy out she neglected to leave the latch "off", so it would lock when she closed the door on him. Maybe its just me, but I believe that Mary would have seen the audience to the door when she had enough entertaining for one night. And if she did that, why wouldnt she make sure the door locks?

She only has that door latch between her and strangers being able to enter her room, since the key was lost...we have no reason to suspect the window method was widely known...so I think if she was inside alone, she locked it.

Cheers Ben.

[Ben]

Probably because Kelly had left the door on the latch, BW. Upon entering the room, the killer need only have flicked the latch to lock the door.

Ben

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

What that presumes is that after letting Blotchy out she neglected to leave the latch "off"

Yes, but the alternative presumes that she must have flicked the switch off the latch. Since we know from Mary Cox's evidence that the door was in its latched condition at 11.45pm at the earliest, it's quite conceivable that it remained so until the killer arrived. If the two carousers were as tanked up as the evidence suggests (well, Kelly specifically), there's every reason to suppose she simply flopped on to bed and never gave the door another moment's thought. This wouldn't be remotely unusual since Chief Inspector Moore specifically bemoaned the East Enders' habit of failing to lock their doors.

Cheers,
Ben

[perrymason]

Hi Mike,

Yes, but the alternative presumes that she must have flicked the switch off the latch. Since we know from Mary Cox's evidence that the door was in its latched condition at 11.45pm at the earliest, it's quite conceivable that it remained so until the killer arrived. If the two carousers were as tanked up as the evidence suggests (well, Kelly specifically), there's every reason to suppose she simply flopped on to bed and never gave the door another moment's thought. This wouldn't be remotely unusual since Chief Inspector Moore specifically bemoaned the East Enders' habit of failing to lock their doors.

Cheers,
Ben

Hi again Ben,

Fair points, however when the room was on that latch earlier, she wasnt in the room. She had gone out with plans to return home at some point, leaving the door "pushable" might just be a result of that knowledge. It might even be why she wanted an escort home, to be with her when she opens the door, knowing someone could have entered the room in her absence, and be inside hiding.

However if she is left alone in the room by Blotchy, it would likely be after the singing had ended and her room went dark. Perhaps she "canoodled", but I cant see a serenade night logically ending that way myself. At that time, based on the fact she is carrying a tune minutes earlier, I believe she would still have her safety in mind when he leaves.

It may well be that her manner of dress, only partially undressed, is representative of the fact that she felt comfortable falling asleep in any attire with a locked door.

All the best Ben.

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

Fair points, however when the room was on that latch earlier, she wasnt in the room.

I know, but from reports of Kelly's condition at 11:45pm where she was observed to have been so intoxicated that she couldn't bid her neighbour a simple goodnight, there's a strong case to be made that her door remained in its "latched" condition on account of her drunken condition, coupled with the distraction of having a guest or client in the room. Again, Moore's observations assume a resonance here. None of it paints a picture of a particularly "security-conscious" individual, at least not on the night and morning in question. It's also clear from the body-language of the couple that he was rather more than a mere "escort", especially if there was singing and additional booze involved.

I can very well picture an increasingly sozzled Kelly slowly succumbing to sleep as her companion departs.

Best regards,
Ben

[BLUE WIZZARD]

Mrs. Maxwell. Said that she saw Mary in the morning of the killing
She informs her about her recent vomit, and refers to the 'Horrors of drink'
Maxwell then sees her talking to a man dressed like a market porter.

Could the market porter have been Joe?

Mary was drinking all night, so how would Mrs. Maxwell know that?

What if Mary could not afford a drink that night and not get drunk?
Mrs. Maxwell would not have know that either.

Why would this woman go against the grain of the other witnesses?

She sounds like a woman that may have been telling the truth.

Why would a day killing be impossible?

I have seen butchers cut up a caucus so fast that it would reduce the animal in no time at all.

Sam's talk about a little light in a room is all it takes to get the eyes adjusted so you can see clearly what you want to do, even if the window were dirty the fact that a pane was out and the coat moved just slightly aside would be enough to let the day light in to get the job done.

Mrs. Maxwell was a respectable woman, why would she lie?

BW

[c.d.]

Hi Blue Wizard,

It doesn't mean that Mrs. Maxwell was lying. She simply could have been mistaken. Happens all the time to a lot of the posters here. (Insert a smiley face).

c.d.