The Night She Died

[Robert]

Hi Richard

I still think your best bet for showing a morning murder is Shannon's blood argument. Some time ago I briefly corresponded with a doctor who said (if I understand him correctly) that the blood would indeed have dried up by the time of entry had she been murdered in the night. I suppose it boils down to what you understand by words like "pool" and whether it's a dry pool or a wet pool, also how much trust you put in Dew with his supposed slipping on the floor.

[Stephen Thomas]

If you show me a picture of a folded/rolled-up blanket in situ and that is all you have, then you cannot tell me how it got there. It may have rolled there in a struggle. It may have been placed there before a struggle. It may have been placed there after a struggle.

Blankets do not get folded/rolled up DURING a struggle. I'd surmise that it was folded/rolled up BEFORE any struggle took place and that a frenzied disemboweler would not be LIKELY to be concerned about blanket folding.

Just my opinion.

[Chava]

Blankets do not get folded/rolled up DURING a struggle. I'd surmise that it was folded/rolled up BEFORE any struggle took place and that a frenzied disemboweler would not be LIKELY to be concerned about blanket folding.

Just my opinion.

I don't know if I see him as frenzied. Violent, yes. But frenzied argues a much more scatter-gun approach than we have here. He's done a lot of painstaking (unpleasant) work...

As for the blanket, I take your point. The blanket doesn't get rolled-up during the struggle. But before the killer comes into the room or after the victim is dead. I'm plumping for after the victim is dead. Others, I know, disagree with me.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Robert,
Yes indeed Shannon did make a good case, and you are right about the Dew account, if indeed he recalls slipping on wet blood and gore[ how could one forget that even in a lifetime] then that would make a strong case for a later T.O.D.
However one then would have to completely discredit the police doctors medical knowledge even back then,were they that niave when faced with wet blood, that they still insisted a night event?.
Exactly how long would it take a sizeable amount of blood to dry, as to my knowlege no one entered that room for over two hours after the police arrived on the scene.
In the case of Kelly i would discount the medical opinion , simply because I find i simply cannot ignore Mrs maxwell, she holds the key[ not literally]
Regards Richard.

[perrymason]

Hi again all,

Ben, in response to your post on the likelihood that "oh-murder" signifies the start of the physical attack on Mary....I have three rebuttal points. First, we know by statements of witnesses including one of the women that heard that cry, that the phrase or similar ones were heard regularly from whatever window she hears this one. And Secondly, neither witness who hears the voice was prompted to action based on their perception of imminent danger by the source of that cry. And thirdly, Elizabeth Prater states she could hear Mary move about in her room...and when straining to hear more from the cry source to see if indeed this was one of the legitimate calls for help that occassionally can be heard...she hears no more sounds.

He first attacks her while she is on the bed, in the attire she is found in...correct? To make this a "sudden attack", if he has been already granted access to the room which the evidence supports, it has to be an attack unseen or unsuspected by the victim. Since there are only a few ways that could even possibly happen at this point,... involving her back being turned to him, or her in a state of semi sleep,.. the time you have to account for is the time it takes from that cry to her being in place for the attack commencement...which is on the bed, undressed already, and with her guard down as described, back turned or asleep. My guess is that was maybe 10-15 minutes tops. By that time, Prater is sleeping again.

There are no evidence based grounds for assuming the attack began with that cry, and in fact some compelling possibilities why it likely did not occur at that time. A very simple one is her expressing annoyance with those words and whatever inflection. And her killer waiting for her to fall somewhat asleep, or turn her back to him in bed.

All the best Ben.

[richardnunweek]

Michael,
Good sense once again.
The cry did not appear a signal for alarm by the witnesses that heard it, it was perceived by Prater to have resembled 'Awakening from a nightmare' complete with vocal rendition during the inquest.
That is if Kit Watkins interview with Kellys friend and neighbour can be trusted, it would even verify it.
If the cry came from somewhere else then the court, one could not make out a T.O.D for Kelly, also if the cry was a nightmare reocurance, that too would not be any help , but would strengthen the morning witnesses accounts of seeing Mary.
Regards Richard.

[perrymason]

Michael,
Good sense once again.
The cry did not appear a signal for alarm by the witnesses that heard it, it was perceived by Prater to have resembled 'Awakening from a nightmare' complete with vocal rendition during the inquest.
That is if Kit Watkins interview with Kellys friend and neighbour can be trusted, it would even verify it.
If the cry came from somewhere else then the court, one could not make out a T.O.D for Kelly, also if the cry was a nightmare reocurance, that too would not be any help , but would strengthen the morning witnesses accounts of seeing Mary.
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard,

Im not so comfortable with accepting Mrs Praters evaluation on the cause of the cry, I dont think she was awake and cognizant long enough to be a fair judge of the impetus for the call...but I do believe she could be a fair judge of the urgency that was conveyed with that cry. And her response was to go back to sleep when nothing more was heard.

You know I personally believe she died long before a young woman complains of a hangover to Carrie though.

All the best Richard.

[Sam Flynn]

If you show me a picture of a folded/rolled-up blanket in situ and that is all you have, then you cannot tell me how it got there.

I didn't tell you how it got there! All I said was "it was neatly placed... as opposed to 'roughly rolled up and chucked there' ".

It may have rolled there in a struggle. It may have been placed there before a struggle. It may have been placed there after a struggle. It may have come to rest there during a struggle.

It's a rolled-up blanket, not a space-hopper

As for the blanket, I take [Stephen Thomas's] point. The blanket doesn't get rolled-up during the struggle. But before the killer comes into the room or after the victim is dead. I'm plumping for after the victim is dead.

That makes him a remarkably fastidious and considerate mutilator.

[perrymason]

On Sams rebuttal.....I agree, the chances that we are seeing bedding folded in any way shape or form by the killer is small. On the other hand, to suggest that it was that way when he came in to the room has some legs...and that would mean that to some extent, Mary had moved bed materials before her killer arrived. Whether to service Blotchy, or to prepare it for her to sleep on, is unclear.

But my feeling is that the bed shows some actions taken likely by Mary, and I feel that would have occured when she prepared it for sleep.

Although a bolster is a form of a pillow, it is not intended as anything but a bedding accessory. To be removed when the bed is used functionally.

Cheers.

[Sam Flynn]

Although a bolster is a form of a pillow, it is not intended as anything but a bedding accessory.

I disagree, Mike - certainly when I grew up the bolster was a functional part of the bed, viz., we rested our weary little heads on them when we slept. It was most definitely not an accessory.

[perrymason]

I disagree, Mike - certainly when I grew up the bolster was a functional part of the bed, viz., we rested our weary little heads on them when we slept. It was most definitely not an accessory.

Im sure you did Sam....but you probably didnt have individual pillows as well at the time. A bolster by design is a decorative element that can also be used as a neck or back support when propped up behind the user.

Isnt Marys head on a breast that is on a pillow? I believe that is the case. Maybe there were 2 pillows.

Cheers Gareth.

[Sam Flynn]

Im sure you did Sam....but you probably didnt have individual pillows as well at the time.

We did, actually, Mike. The bolster went across the width of the bed, with two pillows on top of it. As I said, it was a functional part of the bed.

But then, we were poor...

[perrymason]

Heres a brief explanation of a bolster...

"A bolster (etymology: Middle English, derived from Old English, and before that the Germanic word bulgstraz) is a long narrow pillow or cushion filled with cotton, down, or fibre. In western countries, it is usually placed at the head of bed and functions as head or back support. The equivalent of bolster in the western countries is the body pillow. So exactly what a bolster is depends a bit on the country you live in. No matter where you live, it is long and narrow rather than square or the familiar rectangular pillow for the head. Bolsters for the bedroom are often cylindrical."

Mine is the width of a Queen size bed, and cylindrical. I only use it functionally when reading. Perhaps the pillows that you had were essentially flat, and the boster was used like a second pillow.

I have heard it used as you described Sam, but usually when two or more people are sharing a bed without individual pillows. And in Marys case, I do believe there is at least one pillow under her head, with the breast.

Cheers again.

[Sam Flynn]

And in Marys case, I do believe there is at least one pillow under her head, with the breast.

You may be right, there, Mike - albeit a rather flattened, single, pillow. I have to remain true to my memory of bolsters, though - which, in my distinctly working-class grandmother's house (and those of my relatives and friends) were definitely used as pillows in their own right.

[perrymason]

Its a good example of how our own experiences shape our perceptions Sam, for both of us.

For you....the bolster not being on the bed likely means she hadnt been sleeping yet,... for me, its the opposite.

I do think a pillow under her head would enhance my chances of guessing correctly though.

Time for some Thai Red Curry Chicken....see you in a bit Gareth, all the best..