The Night She Died

[Ben]

What does the word "parroting" mean? I suggest you look it up. Kennedy said something that Sarah Lewis NEVER SAID!!!! That's NOT PARROTING.

Oops, that's a copy and paste, I'm afraid:

The details of the account are far too implausibly similar to apply to two individuals, suggesting very strongly that someone had learned of Sarah Lewis' evidence and attempted to pass it off as her own experience, getting a few details wrong in the process.

THAT IS PARROTTING!!!

AND WE HAVE EVIDENCE THAT PEOPLE WERE PAROTTING ACCOUNTS!!!

See, I can do silly unnecessary capitals and exclamation marks too.

Sarah who? What relatives? Kennedy had relatives...Sarah had friends.

So that would total four people in a room the size of Kelly's?

[Sam Flynn]

All the victims, I believe, had close ties to the area around Millers Court.

That is certainly not the case, Chava - however, I won't distort the thread you started by discussing it here.

[Chava]

Gareth, I don't mean they had close ties to Millers Court. But that they had spent time in Dorset St. I know Chapman did. Eddowes did as well. But you're right, it was a generalization and I shouldn't have said it without checking, which I usually do!

[Marlowe]

Ben,

"getting a few details wrong in the process"....huh? And you think one of these tiny "few details" involves saying that she knew Mary Kelly and saw Mary Kelly with the well-dressed man AND another woman who was attempting to go in the opposite direction from this guy. You seriously think that she was "parroting" Sarah Lewis when she gave that account? WOW. I don't know if you're totally BSing or you're just completely clueless. Either way, your argument is totally destroyed and you know it.

[Ben]

And you think one of these tiny "few details" involves saying that she knew Mary Kelly and saw Mary Kelly

Easily.

In fact, that's precisely the sort of embellished nonsense that a person parrotting another person's account is likely to include. It's a perfectly basic premise to all but the most moronic. Women #1 provides account. Woman #2 hears of that account. Woman #2 then tries to pass it off as her own account, but because she doesn't have a superhuman memory, she doesn't get it precisely right. She embellishes, hence the fact that she mentions seeing Kelly on 10the, but says nothing of Kelly on 12th, hence the fact that she didn't appear at the inquest.

I'm stifling some serious giggles at the hilarious thought of "Marlowe" destroying my argument. Stalking me on a message board with the same obsessive detail that made you look stupid before was one thing, but to delude yourself to that extent is just embarrassing.

[Sam Flynn]

Gareth, I don't mean they had close ties to Millers Court. But that they had spent time in Dorset St.

In actual fact, Chava, apart from Chapman (as you've already correctly noted), the other victims' connections with Dorset Street were practically non-existent. With the exception of Mary Kelly, the other C5 victims are known to have lodged in Flower & Dean Street, albeit in different lodging houses and at different times.

[Marlowe]

Ben,

You "giggling"? Never. Why, you're the epitome of masculinity.

Anyway, you do make this real easy for me. Let's see...you wrote, "hence the fact that she didn't appear at the inquest." Ah, what a genius you are. Here you just got through arguing that Lewis and Kennedy might be the same person, remember? Now Kennedy is not at the inquest because, according to you, she didn't mention Kelly (although she actually did, indirectly) on the 12th. So, what is it now? Kennedy was a liar, or Kennedy and Lewis were one and the same? Can't remember your latest BS, it seems. That's common with delusions, I think. Which reminds me: I posted to Chava, not to you. If there was any stalking, it was you doing it. Careful, little man.

[Ben]

Ah, what a genius you are. Here you just got through arguing that Lewis and Kennedy might be the same person, remember?

That's a possibility.

I don't believe it to be the correct explanation.

I believe the correct explanation is that Kennedy was copying Lewis' account.

Now Kennedy is not at the inquest because, according to you, she didn't mention Kelly (although she actually did, indirectly) on the 12th

No, Kennedy was not at the inquest because she was more than likely exposed as a liar for reason I explained above. The fact that she gave conflicting accounts can't have helped either, but that is also something that you should reasonably expect from someone passing off an account that they didn't experience themselves.

Kennedy was a liar, or Kennedy and Lewis were one and the same? Can't remember your latest BS, it seems.

Kennedy was a liar, and if you can't keep up with the thread and just want to hurl insults around, don't waste everyone's time (including your own) contributing to it. The fact that you've chosen to entrench yourself in this particular facet of the case and apparently no other is annoying in itself, but doubly so when it was only recently that the latest "Mrs. Kennedy" discussion was in session.

[Chava]

Gareth, I know this has been mentioned before, but Eddowes gave a false address on Dorset St when she pawned some stuff--shoes, I believe. She also gave a false name--Kelly. No, I'm not suggesting that she was a close confidante of Mary Jane. Kelly was a common name. But the fact that she chose Dorset St for her fake address suggests to me that she may have had some ties to the street. Flowery Dean was just around the corner. She probably had pals who did doss on Dorset St.

[Sam Flynn]

Gareth, I know this has been mentioned before, but Eddowes gave a false address on Dorset St

... Fashion Street, actually, Chava. She gave a false name, "Mary Ann Kelly".

[Chava]

... Fashion Street, actually, Chava. She gave a false name, "Mary Ann Kelly".

Wait a minute, according to this board and other research I've done, she was found with a pawn ticket in her possession when she died and it said:

Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset Street and dated September 28, 2S for a pair of men's boots.

[perrymason]

Hi folks,

I believe that Sam correctly used the alias and address that Kate used with Hutt, and Chava is correct when he talks of the boots alias. Something that to me was always curious too Chava....not once with Jane Kelly and Dorset St, but within what was likely 24 hours, she uses Mary Kelly.

Now, Kelly wasnt a rare surname as we all know from these cases, and she was the "partner" of a man who had that surname, which would perhaps be used by Kate in other situations as Mrs Kelly maybe....while hopping for example, but the fact she uses both of Marys alleged given names, Mary and Jane, a number 6 and Dorset Street, and that she does this just prior to being murdered and the victim that is believed killed next by the same killer, and the last, is Mary Jane Kelly of 26 Dorset Street.....more accurately of course Millers Court, is to me one of the "co-incidences" that are abundant within these cases... a few being, Brown and Schwartz's same time-different stories, Watkins and Harvey not seeing or hearing each other or Harvey the killer, Mary Ann being discovered dead twice, scads of the most relevant and controversial records just lost, stolen or destroyed, ..Johns claim the boots were pawned Saturday morning...the pawn ticket saying differently, finding the only known piece of a crime scene transported by the killer then left somewhere, on the night two murders are killed with almost all Jewish witnesses and one on Jewish property... to be found almost right next to some chalk writing about blame and Jews, right at the entrance of a housing complex of perhaps 90-95% Jewish tenants.....

Theres lots of them, but this little factoid that suggests the last two women died calling themselves Mary Kelly is quite odd I think.

Best regards all.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Guys,
What it all boils down to, is the time of death, is it not?
Question.. Do we trust the medical reports findings.?
Question.. If Yes, how do we account for Maxwells statement,without using the same old argument 'she was mistaken' wrong day, wrong person etc , etc. when her account was verified by the police[ which surely would have included clothing found in her room which may have still been relatively damp]
Question.. Do we dismiss a possible explanation for the cry heard, that being Elizabeth Praters inquest account[ awakening from a nightmare]
Question.. Do we dismiss Kit Watkins interview with the woman lottie, who was aquainted with Mjk, in which the latter suggested that Kelly had during the month of october a nightmare , the subject that she was being murdered. would it not be then possible that a reoccurence of that dream, taking into account her fear of being in room 13, where the original dream had occured, could have led to a obvious cry of 'Oh Murder'.
Question.. Do we ignore the bedroll position and its possible indications.?
Question.. Can we ignore the last person seen alive with Mjk. ie, the market porter dressed in plaid, seen talking to a alleged dead woman?
So many questions, however this case is not straightforeward, and personally have never gone with the Astracan Killer[ although I believe GH] i have always however believed Ma Maxwell, and I have always believed that the police did also, even if it went against the medical judgement from the police doctors who were present, if not, why did they order her to give that contradictory evidence at the inquest,would it not have been easier all round to have settled for less hassle.
Best regards, and a happy new year to everyone,
Richard.

[perrymason]

Hi Guys,
What it all boils down to, is the time of death, is it not?
1.Question.. Do we trust the medical reports findings.?
2.Question.. If Yes, how do we account for Maxwells statement,without using the same old argument 'she was mistaken' wrong day, wrong person etc , etc. when her account was verified by the police[ which surely would have included clothing found in her room which may have still been relatively damp]
3.Question.. Do we dismiss a possible explanation for the cry heard, that being Elizabeth Praters inquest account[ awakening from a nightmare]
4.Question.. Do we dismiss Kit Watkins interview with the woman lottie, who was aquainted with Mjk, in which the latter suggested that Kelly had during the month of october a nightmare , the subject that she was being murdered. would it not be then possible that a reoccurence of that dream, taking into account her fear of being in room 13, where the original dream had occured, could have led to a obvious cry of 'Oh Murder'.
5.Question.. Do we ignore the bedroll position and its possible indications.?
6.Question.. Can we ignore the last person seen alive with Mjk. ie, the market porter dressed in plaid, seen talking to a alleged dead woman?
So many questions, however this case is not straightforeward, and personally have never gone with the Astracan Killer[ although I believe GH] i have always however believed Ma Maxwell, and I have always believed that the police did also, even if it went against the medical judgement from the police doctors who were present, if not, 7. why did they order her to give that contradictory evidence at the inquest,would it not have been easier all round to have settled for less hassle.
Best regards, and a happy new year to everyone,
Richard.

Hi Richard,

I numbered your points to address them properly.

My answers would be...

1. Why would we not trust them, the state of the body when first examined is consistent with a death time that is suggested by the stomach contents. Rigor had begun and was increasing, something that takes anywhere from 8 to 13 hours, not 5.

2. Carrie Maxwells statement deserves no more or less attention than given by the authorities, and the same credibility.

3. Since Elizabeth had been awake only seconds, and didnt even know where the cry was coming from or who specifically, shes hardly in a position to guesstimate that Mary was waking from a nightmare.

4. I dont know if that story has any value, and to assert that this may be a recurring nightmare requires a story beyond repute and some evidence that Mary made the cry herself, before any conjecture in that area could be entertained.

5. The implications of the bedroll include being placed there by the photographers to shoot MJK3, and there is no indication anywhere that it was used every night, or wasnt just to muffle noise that the bed might make banging into the wall when being moved about.

6. The last person seen with Mary Kelly according to the officials and the records was a Blotchy Faced Man, at 11:45pm on Nov 8th.

7. There is no indication that Carrie Maxwell was "forced" to testify at the Inquest, and for all we know she had a cousin who was in Law Enforcement and she made him plead for her to be allowed to speak. The only thing that is provable about Carrie Maxwells story is that the police and Inquest officials didnt believe her evidence from the records of her statement, and told her so before she even opens her mouth. Why didnt they believe her? Well for one, her story takes place when Mary Kelly is already dead for one, by medical evidence, and her knowledge of Mary Kelly, claimed conversations with her, and even that Mary knew Maxwell enough to call her "Corrie/Carrie" are all unproven and unsubstantiated.

This night is tricky Richard, but it gets far trickier than it needs to be when you use the statements that were discarded by the men that took them, not the ones that were accepted.

Before any of your ideas regarding November 9th in Millers Court can be discussed seriously, evidence that discarded statements warrant re-consideration must be found, and evidence to support stories like Prater being able to guess Mary had a nightmare and woke, without even knowing that she even heard Mary at all or where the call came from.

Cheers Richard

[Sam Flynn]

Wait a minute, according to this board and other research I've done, she was found with a pawn ticket in her possession when she died and it said: Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset Street.

Good catch, Chava. However, Eddowes' use of that false name/address for a pawnbroking transaction doesn't mean that she had any physical connection with Dorset Street at the time. On the contrary, we know that she didn't, anymore than she had a connection with Fashion Street, despite the (different) false name/address she used at Bishopsgate Police Station on the night of her death.